Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

I will be starting my first year of law school at BC this fall.

I had offers from some schools that are "better" and people would probably think im crazy for going to bc over columbia, georgetown, etc. but i am really happy to be in boston, getting tons of free money, and going to BC.

BOSTON COLLEGE LAW SCHOOL CLASS OF 2009

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Whose starting law school in the fall?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your definately going to be a star student.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

XXX,

BC over Columbia, really?

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

El D,

Is this going to be another "OMG, if you don't go to a top 5 law school you'll never get a job" thread?

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whose starting law school in the fall?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your definately going to be a star student.

[/ QUOTE ]

but clearly it's his starting school [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Whose house? Run's house...

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

mia,

No, it's very easy to get jobs if you graduate from any halfway decent law school, especially if you do well in your class. Many friends of mine who graduated at the top of their class from schools like BC or Tulane (decent but not great ranking) have found super jobs at top regional law firms, and some at bigger nationwide firms as well.

Going to a top-ranked law school definitely has advantages, but there's no comparison between going to a top law school versus a decent one and going to a top business school versus a decent one.

As for your comment: "Is this going to be another 'OMG, if you don't go to a top 5 law school you'll never get a job' thread? " - could you point me to a thread about this? I don't recall one ever taking place.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

Don't go unless you really, really want to be a lawyer. Practicing law sucks. I don't like it and neither do any of my lawyer friends.

The only ones who do like are the ones who dreamed of it since they were kids, or the ones who like the 'idea' of being a lawyer -- the cash, prestige, nice clothes, work on important deals.

I advise against it.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

I am starting law school at LSU this fall. I was accepted to Tulane, but I would rather not graduate with $100K in student loans to worry about.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

I'll be starting law school at Texas Wesleyan this fall. Not a great school, but I'm going practically for free, and I don't really feel like moving.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

[ QUOTE ]
XXX,

BC over Columbia, really?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i know, im probably one of like ten people to ever do this, and for good reason, columbia is an amazing school.

here were my reasons

1) Graduating law school with $80,000 less debt

2) Family (including elderly father) and girlfriend that live in Boston.

3) I know I want to work in boston after graduation

4) I love boston in general.

5) I know that you must place high in class at BC to compete for same jobs as median students at Columbia, but I am very confident that I can do this.


I know that many people would say that even if BC gave me a million dollars cash i should always choose a top name school, but whatever.


BC is a good school despite the bosTTTon college jokes.



yeah, whose, whoops.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

I'm going to BU in the fall. If you replace family/girlfriend with good buddies from home, my story and sentiments are basically the exact same as yours. Some people I've talked to support our line of reasoning, others clearly think i made a big mistake. I hope we're right. Good luck.

Steve

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

I'm not really into being a lawyer, but I chose to do it because it made sense coming out of undergrad. I do, however, like the idea of the cash. Do you find that these types of lawyers do actually like it? That wouild be sweet. Thanks.

Steve

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

XXX,

I chose Rice for undergrad over Duke, MIT and a few other schools in large part because Rice was way cheaper and gave me lots of scholarships, while the others were way more expensive and gave me far less scholarships, so I understand your decision completely.

I didn't want to stay in Texas after graduation, so that made the choice a little more risky. With you wanting to stay in Boston, it makes the choice much easier to make.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

No.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

I can't wait to be a lawyer! And this is coming from me after just finishing day 1 of the BAR.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not really into being a lawyer, but I chose to do it because it made sense coming out of undergrad. I do, however, like the idea of the cash. Do you find that these types of lawyers do actually like it? That wouild be sweet. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone I have spoken to regarding the subject (which is quite a few people because I am seriously considering law) has told me that the money is far and away the worst possible reason to become a lawyer and that those who enter the profession for the money invariably wind up miserable.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

Yikes. Care to elaborate? My hope was that DrewDevil would expand on his perception of people who became lawyers strictly for financial reasons, specifically with regards to their levels of misery/satisfaction relative to those he is describing. Really, I would like to hear anyone's thoughts on choosing a career one is not passionate about or anything related to law school.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

I'll be going into my second year and I'm looking forward to it. Here's my unsolicited advice to all incoming 1Ls...

1) many many people will try to get you down about going to law school and becoming a lawyer. omgsomuchwork, hatelife, etc. don't listen to them. most of them don't have firsthand experience and don't know what they're talking about. I know some people that are miserable at my school and others who are quite happy.

2) almost everyone will have advice for you on what you "need" to be doing - study groups, outlines, etc. the sheer volume of advice can be frightening. if something somebody says sounds good, try it out. if they sound like they're full of [censored], they are. carve your own path, don't follow someone else's.

3) trust me, no one has any [censored] clue what is going on at first. I didn't really "get" law school for the first 2.5 months.

4) I maintain that law school is as much work as you want to make it. I knew 1Ls who spent hours in the library every night and others who went out 4 nights a week.

5) grades are much more arbitrary than undergrad. typically, 100% rides on a 3 hour open-book, essay final. a large portion is just how good of a first draft writer you are. personally, I have experienced a reverse correlation between amount of effort put into a class and the grade I received.

6) for a unique perspective on law school, read Brush with the Law

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

eviljeff,

Excellent post, I agree with just about everything you said.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

To add to what eviljeff said. Profs will try to convince you not to use commercial outlines. Eff that. Profs tried to hide the ball on you, outlines help you find it. They are better for some subjects over others, but on the whole they are VERY helpful - i swore by them.

The highcourt case series is especially good.

Also, get outlines from people who got an A in the class the year before.

The book "Law School Confidential" has some pretty good thoughts too and worth the read.

That is all - time for some MBEs!!!!!

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

Some lawyers do extremely well financially. You might too. But there are a lot of lawyers who do only OK. Some do less than OK. Most lawyers who do well financially tend to do a couple of things. First, they are good lawyers. I have not met many people really good at something who fake it completely. Being a good lawyer is a lot different than being a good law student though, keep that in mind. There are also some good lawyers who don't do that well financially. You will find good lawyers who go into things like government work or whatever who like what they do. If your goal is money, you might forclose an opportunity to do something you actually like because of the money.

Your definition of big money and how to get it also makes a difference. I have met a lot of people who think anything over 6 figures is big money. So a lot of people go to firms and grind it out and make partner and make some money. Let's forget the biggest best paying firms and look at nice local firms where the lawyers work pretty hard and do good work and make some money. If you are like them you will work your ass off, make enough to live a decent life in whatever big or medium city you are in, won't get to take enough time to enjoy life, won't ever get a 2 week vacation, will have to work 16 hour days to take a one week vacation where you will get called 5 out of 7 days, and you won't enjoy the work all that much. You probably won't retire early.

I can give examples and exceptions. I know or am related to lawyers who went the big firm route. Same with people who made other choices. The people who to me at least seem to enjoy life some and make money do it in somewhat non traditional ways and sometimes get lucky. I always made choices based on what work I wanted to do. This cost me money, but I got to do work that was interesting and ultimately satisfying. It was a choice, but not much of a choice because I hate the standard go to a firm and do civil litigation or desk work crap. I can do it if I can make myself sit there and do a bunch of stuff I don't want to do. But why? So I did other things that don't always pay the money. I also know people really well who do well financially and gdo work that isn't awful in firms that don't suck and not every week is an 80 hour week. You won't see the placement office offering this job and they don't come around to campus interviewing for it. You kind of find it and make it as you go. In any event, you get paid to produce. People who go into law only for money may not have what it takes to really produce; to be really able to do the kind of work it takes to get the big dollars. In whatever specialty. It is sort of like saying I hate golf but will be a golf pro for the money. The ones who do really well don't fake it. Obviously law is easier than making it in a sport because you can make some money and get jobs without having the raw talent to be in the top couple hundred in the world at it. But the good lawyers have the talent for it and work hard. Like in anything else. If you hate it, it will be hard to compete with them for many reasons.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll be going into my second year and I'm looking forward to it. Here's my unsolicited advice to all incoming 1Ls...

1) many many people will try to get you down about going to law school and becoming a lawyer. omgsomuchwork, hatelife, etc. don't listen to them. most of them don't have firsthand experience and don't know what they're talking about. I know some people that are miserable at my school and others who are quite happy.

2) almost everyone will have advice for you on what you "need" to be doing - study groups, outlines, etc. the sheer volume of advice can be frightening. if something somebody says sounds good, try it out. if they sound like they're full of [censored], they are. carve your own path, don't follow someone else's.

3) trust me, no one has any [censored] clue what is going on at first. I didn't really "get" law school for the first 2.5 months.

4) I maintain that law school is as much work as you want to make it. I knew 1Ls who spent hours in the library every night and others who went out 4 nights a week.

5) grades are much more arbitrary than undergrad. typically, 100% rides on a 3 hour open-book, essay final. a large portion is just how good of a first draft writer you are. personally, I have experienced a reverse correlation between amount of effort put into a class and the grade I received.

6) for a unique perspective on law school, read Brush with the Law

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're a 2L and you think you know what you're talking about?

I graduated from law school at the university of Texas and spent nearly four years practicing law at the largest (and best-paying) law firm in Texas, Vinson & Elkins.

The money was very, very good, but it still took me that length of time to pay off my law school loans, so I didn't really get to live like a big shot.

I hated practicing law, hated every freaking second of it. Endless reviewing and revising of documents. Long, long hours. [censored] partners who thought they owned you because you were getting paid so well. And the most tedious kind of work you could imagine.

This was not unique to me. Of the 30 people who started at V&E when I did, all but 2 of them were gone within 5 years. Burned out, mostly.

Many, many of my friends are lawyers. Nearly all of them hate it or just barely tolerate it. The only ones I know who like it are people who always wanted to be lawyers, and one guy who likes the prestige of being a lawyer and all that goes with it.

I got out of the law for almost five years, and now I'm practicing again--not because I really wanted to, but because I was nearly broke as a sportscaster and I was getting married. I've already told my wife that I am only going to do this long enough to get out of debt and to figure out something else, like start my own business or something.

The main problem with practicing law is that lawyers work by the hour and are therefore limited by their own output. The more hours you work, the more money you earn (either for yourself or your partners), so there is ever-increasing pressure to work more more more hours. The partners at the big firms make great money, sure--but they have to keep billing billing billing to keep the money flowing.

It's a terrible way to make a lot of money.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

So the gist of this thread is that business school>>>law school?

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you're a 2L and you think you know what you're talking about?

[/ QUOTE ]

Add another lawyer to DrewDevil's position. Practicing law sucks. I'm already disillusioned by it, and haven't been out long. I won't be practicing much longer.

Also, 2L's don't know anything about anything, but like to pretend they do. Count on this when you're a 1L.

[ QUOTE ]
So the gist of this thread is that business school>>>law school?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I could do it over again, my choices would have been:

1) Vet School
2) Med School
3) B-School
...
1,263,441,561,981) Crackhead
1,263,441,561,982) Law School

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll be going into my second year and I'm looking forward to it. Here's my unsolicited advice to all incoming 1Ls...

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to pick on you, but I've got to revisit your post.

[ QUOTE ]
1) many many people will try to get you down about going to law school and becoming a lawyer. omgsomuchwork, hatelife, etc. don't listen to them. most of them don't have firsthand experience and don't know what they're talking about. I know some people that are miserable at my school and others who are quite happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Law school was fun and interesting. Practicing law sucks. From someone who has actually practiced law.

[ QUOTE ]
2) almost everyone will have advice for you on what you "need" to be doing - study groups, outlines, etc. the sheer volume of advice can be frightening. if something somebody says sounds good, try it out. if they sound like they're full of [censored], they are. carve your own path, don't follow someone else's.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're going into your first year of law school, you should be prepared to work harder than you've ever worked before. The 1L year is very important to your first job after school, and it is also very difficult, maybe the hardest year in academia. If you don't bust your ass, you will not get top grades, and you will limit your job options.

[ QUOTE ]
3) trust me, no one has any [censored] clue what is going on at first. I didn't really "get" law school for the first 2.5 months.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never miss a class, sit in the front row if you can, take copious notes, recopy your notes into an outline form before the next class, do all the reading. Two months before the final, take your re-copied notes and type them into an outline on the computer. Study the outline until you have it memorized. Study groups help take some of the drudgery out of it. Do all this and you will get an A.

Buy the book "Getting Straight A's" for more explanation. It works.

[ QUOTE ]
4) I maintain that law school is as much work as you want to make it. I knew 1Ls who spent hours in the library every night and others who went out 4 nights a week.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of these groups did well in their first year, the other didn't. Take a guess as to which is which.

[ QUOTE ]
5) grades are much more arbitrary than undergrad. typically, 100% rides on a 3 hour open-book, essay final. a large portion is just how good of a first draft writer you are. personally, I have experienced a reverse correlation between amount of effort put into a class and the grade I received.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like a true "4 nights out a week" guy. The 1Ls who study hardest and best and know the material best will do the best. It's not a crapshoot. This is just a dumb statement.

[ QUOTE ]
6) for a unique perspective on law school, read Brush with the Law

[/ QUOTE ]

Never read it. One L and The Paper Chase are also good.

But don't listen to this guy's opinions on what it's like to be a lawyer. Law school and law firms are totally different animals.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

noah went to Holy Cross. A friend went there and recognized easy street statement in your other post. p.s. HC has nasty chicks. bc is hotter, drop the gf, stop making up posts in oot.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

Drew, you seem very bitter at life. Sorry you made a decision that did not work out for you.

Did you ever consider working for the goverment?

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So the gist of this thread is that business school>>>law school?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I could do it over again, my choices would have been:

1) Vet School
2) Med School
3) B-School
...
1,263,441,561,981) Crackhead
1,263,441,561,982) Law School

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't business school the easiest of these three? And if you go into business you get to look fresh to death in fly suits, make mad cash, and bang hot chicks. Or am I totally off base here?

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had offers from some schools that are "better" and people would probably think im crazy for going to bc over columbia, georgetown, etc. but i am really happy to be in boston, getting tons of free money, and going to BC.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just noted this forum from OOT, and the law school thread interested me.

As a practicing attorney, let me assure you that where you go means nothing if you're a good attorney. If you make connections, know your [censored], and do good work, people don't give two [censored] about your law school.

It's hard to fathom at the entry stage, but trust me, you guys will realize it one day.

Also, I'm not telling you where I went. ;-)

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hated practicing law, hated every freaking second of it. Endless reviewing and revising of documents. Long, long hours. [censored] partners who thought they owned you because you were getting paid so well. And the most tedious kind of work you could imagine.

This was not unique to me. Of the 30 people who started at V&E when I did, all but 2 of them were gone within 5 years. Burned out, mostly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe every word of this. Let me tell you my path, as a comparison. I went to school, made a name for myself in a unique pracice area, and got involved with other practitioners who were interested in similar things. Now, I handle my own cases, take depositions, appear at oral argument, and negotiate settlements. Plus, because I have some specialized knowledge, I was able to arrange to be compensated like a "partner," though less than the more experienced attorneys. So, though its not guaranteed money, the potental to make it big quick exists (though potential to go broke does as well)!

I have tons of freedom, and I get out in the world and the others I work with don't give me [censored], because they know thay can't just find another recent law graduate with my knowledge to kick around for a few years.

Of course, I deal with clients, idiot judges, etc. But I feel like those problems are better than the type found in a large law firm.

So, that's another path. There are millions of other ways to go . . .

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

[ QUOTE ]
XXX,

BC over Columbia, really?

[/ QUOTE ]

El Diablo,

My Biggest Regret, having just finished law school, is that I did not go to a worse law school that offered me lots of scholarship money, instead electing for a better university to which I am now indebted 6 figures.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't wait to be a lawyer! And this is coming from me after just finishing day 1 of the BAR.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how about that MBE? What the [censored] is the rule in Dumbar's case?

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had offers from some schools that are "better" and people would probably think im crazy for going to bc over columbia, georgetown, etc. but i am really happy to be in boston, getting tons of free money, and going to BC.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just noted this forum from OOT, and the law school thread interested me.

As a practicing attorney, let me assure you that where you go means nothing if you're a good attorney. If you make connections, know your [censored], and do good work, people don't give two [censored] about your law school.

It's hard to fathom at the entry stage, but trust me, you guys will realize it one day.

Also, I'm not telling you where I went. ;-)

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this totally and it is exactly why I wish I hadn't gone to a school that put me six figures in debt (especially since I'm working as a prosecutor, and government jobs do not pay very high, although I love the job).

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't wait to be a lawyer! And this is coming from me after just finishing day 1 of the BAR.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how about that MBE? What the [censored] is the rule in Dumbar's case?

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean Dumpor's rule?

it means you can't take a crap at another man's house unless you bring over beer first.

it is so funny that you brought up this rule. this is the same rule that 2 of my fantasy baseball message boards brought up.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't wait to be a lawyer! And this is coming from me after just finishing day 1 of the BAR.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how about that MBE? What the [censored] is the rule in Dumbar's case?

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean Dumpor's rule?

it means you can't take a crap at another man's house unless you bring over beer first.

it is so funny that you brought up this rule. this is the same rule that 2 of my fantasy baseball message boards brought up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I just assumed it was a wrong answer and crossed it off because I had no idea what it was.

How about that question with the ridiculously unconstitutional treaty? That was another fun one.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
XXX,

BC over Columbia, really?

[/ QUOTE ]

El Diablo,

My Biggest Regret, having just finished law school, is that I did not go to a worse law school that offered me lots of scholarship money, instead electing for a better university to which I am now indebted 6 figures.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny, I feel the exact opposite as passing over a top 20 school really made it harder to get a job and I graduated fairly high in my class and had pretty legit resume.

I guess it all depends on your perspective. If you want to work at a big firm it makes a lot harder to do if you don't have the big name on the resume or are not in the top 10% of the class.

Heck it is even hard to get a government job anymore as they are getting really competitive. But there you don't make nearly as much and so all those loans don't seem worth it.

I'm still pretty happy how things worked out and I am not concerned about having a kickass career.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Drew, you seem very bitter at life. Sorry you made a decision that did not work out for you.

Did you ever consider working for the goverment?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a little bitter about choosing to go to law school in the first place, because I think I've experienced some of the 'golden handcuffs' problem.

And I feel a little bitter about the disparity between law school (interesting, energizing) and law practice (mind-numbing, soul-sucking, etc.)

But you do get paid well for practicing law... and I could probably support my family decently as a part-time lawyer. This is, in fact, what I hope to do after the new year (after my son is born).

But mainly, I think kids who are considering law school should be absolutely sure this is what they want, and I want them to have the benefit of knowledge from someone who's been there and learned the hard way that practicing law, for most people, is not a great way to make a living.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

This thread is making me feel like I should already be studying for the bar, and it's a year away.

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

I just wanted to say that as an incoming 2L, I agree wholeheartedly with DrewDevil here.

What he said about cracking down during 1L couldn't be more true. I decided that I was going to party and have fun to the same extent that I did in college. I rarely went to class and just made friends with a few studious students so that I could keep up with what assignments were due, etc.

I thought that I could do this because I thought I was smarter than everyone. Well, as it turns out, I finished 1L with a 2.3. This doesn't sound like the end of the world, right? I mean, I've still got two years to get it up.

Except you don't. The problem is that in the fall semester of 2L, you start interviewing for jobs for the summer after 2L. And these are the firms that are going to be offering you jobs for after you graduate. So you basically have one year where you MUST get good grades, or it's going to [censored] you up for the next however many years, until you can develop a reputation/make enough contacts that your poor showing at law school no longer matters.

I underestimated 1L, and didn't realize how important the grades were, and now am in very bad shape because of it. I'm going to graduate from law school with over $100K of debt, and will be coming out of a barely-top-tier school in the middle of my class. Don't do this! Crack down on the books for at least one year. You'll be happy you did.


As far as the career, here is an interesting anecdote. The other day I went to leave work at 6 p.m. (I had been there since 9 a.m.). I clerk for a small labor/employment law firm in D.C. The attorney I work for asked me, "Where are you going?" I replied that it I'd worked 9 hours, and I was headed home. He said to me that if I thought 9 hour days were going to cut it, I should drop out of law school right now.

Think about that. The thought of never being home to spend time with my wife/family bothers me. If it bothers you as well, perhaps you should think about a different line of work.


DrewDevil,

What are my prospects for enjoying a legal career if I don't even find law school interesting?

Alternatively, anyone know of some other career paths that a guy with a J.D. can take?

Re: Whose starting law school in the fall?
 

I'm officially going to Business School instead. Thanks guys!