2/4 - Should I lay this AQs down?
 

Is anyone folding this on the river? Not sure if I did the right thing on the turn. Comments? SB is 17.1/7.9/1.4 over
76 hands. UTG+2 is semi-loose passive.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (7 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (11 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+2 folds.

Final Pot: 13 BB

Re: 2/4 - Should I lay this AQs down?
 

the pot is big so i wouldn't. he could have Ax of diamonds here often enough.

Re: 2/4 - Should I lay this AQs down?
 

[ QUOTE ]
the pot is big so i wouldn't. he could have Ax of diamonds here often enough.

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Agreed. I even throw in a cap on the flop here - I'd go into call down only if he still leads the turn after that.

Re: 2/4 - Should I lay this AQs down?
 

sb is a good player. he is showing great strenght on the flop. You have UTG to worry about behind you. If you are good right now, you want him the f out of there.

I'd raise the turn, and if the SB three bets, I'd fold. If I raise the turn, and the SB calls, I'm checking the river.

Re: 2/4 - Should I lay this AQs down?
 

This pot is definitely worth a call on the river; like Xmas said, we could be looking at Ax of diamonds often enough to make a profitable call. Other than Ax of diamonds, given the board and villains stats (tight, fairly low AF) we are most likely looking at A-10.

As for UTG+2, with the description of semi-loose passive (read: slightly better than your usual fish) , calling two cold on this flop usually means 2 diamonds. We want him out of the pot on the turn, and raising SB's bet will usually do this, but given the strength shown by SB, we're opening ourselves up to be 3-banged. However, I still think raising the turn is the best option here: it should most likely eliminate a drawing UTG+2 (or he's just padding the pot with a crap ace), and get the money in when we're ahead of SB holding Adxd. If he shows us the 3-bet, then we're probably behind and can let it go (a 1.4 surely isn't going to push his nut flush draw this hard). If SB just calls our raise, we can probably go ahead and bet any non-diamond river for value.

Re: 2/4 - Should I lay this AQs down?
 

UTG+2 would probably be incorrect to fold a flush draw. So a turn raise has no use. The only time he could fold is if he fears it will be reraised and capped back to him again. And even then it's a close fold. He has position, he can expect to make some bets on the river as well.

Re: 2/4 - Should I lay this AQs down?
 

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UTG+2 would probably be incorrect to fold a flush draw. So a turn raise has no use. The only time he could fold is if he fears it will be reraised and capped back to him again. And even then it's a close fold. He has position, he can expect to make some bets on the river as well.

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My bad - didn't see the pot size. Villain would be getting close to 5:1 calling two cold, which would be more than enough for the sort of villain described holding any flush draw. Is turn raise still no good in that case for the reasons I described in relation to SB?

Re: 2/4 - Should I lay this AQs down?
 

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I'd raise the turn, and if the SB three bets, I'd fold. If I raise the turn, and the SB calls, I'm checking the river.

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I think this is the best line too.

Haupt_234

Re: 2/4 - Should I lay this AQs down?
 

I don't know. I think raising and calling is close. But if you're going to fold to a 3bet, I'd rather just call the turn AND the river for those 2 bets. He might have that Ax... he is 1.4 over only 76 hands. SB might very well be a solid TAG who just hasn't been hitting much for 76 hands; his 17/8 looks good. A raise won't get any normal draw that UTG+2 could have to fold, and do you actually really mind if he hangs around with a 3 outer? What outs of yours do you hope to protect? You're not buying outs, you won't get him to fold, and you might be 3 bet. I'd just call down.

Re: 2/4 - Should I lay this AQs down?
 

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A raise won't get any normal draw that UTG+2 could have to fold, and do you actually really mind if he hangs around with a 3 outer?

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But it will charge him or the SB more if one of them are on a FD.


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What outs of yours do you hope to protect?

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You aren't protecting "outs", you are protecting your made hand.

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You're not buying outs, you won't get him to fold, and you might be 3 bet. I'd just call down.

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He might fold, and it is a very easy fold to a 3bet. You are representing a huge hand by making the turn raise, as well as charging draws for more. I would also most likely try and take a free SD if I am called on the turn (but it is close).

Haupt_234

Re: 2/4 - Should I lay this AQs down?
 

So it appears to be a close call on raising or calling the turn. I think I like calling better. I would certainly like to get to showdown, so folding to a 3-bet on the turn would eliminate that possibility. And there are a lot of scary cards that could hit on the river (a jack being one of them), so the
cheaper for me the better I think. If a diamond hits, I'm folding the river.

Re: 2/4 - Should I lay this AQs down?
 

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And there are a lot of scary cards that could hit on the river (a jack being one of them)

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This should be more of a reason to raise the turn instead of calling it.

Haupt_234

Re: 2/4 - Should I lay this AQs down?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So it appears to be a close call on raising or calling the turn. I think I like calling better. I would certainly like to get to showdown, so folding to a 3-bet on the turn would eliminate that possibility. And there are a lot of scary cards that could hit on the river (a jack being one of them), so the
cheaper for me the better I think. If a diamond hits, I'm folding the river.

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You don't understand. This is a concept I didn't really understand for awhile, but it really is a good play. You don't know UTG has a flush draw, he could have a T, or a PP, or a gutshot, you don't nkow what he has. If you are winning, you want to either charge UTG, or make him fold.

And if the SB 3bets, you are drawing dead, or have 3 outs, and it's a super easy fold.

If the turn is Heads up, meaning UTG folded to your flop raise, then calling down from the turn bet is the best play.

Main point, you want to protect your hand when it is best, and if you get 3bet, you don't have to call down.

You invest 2BB both ways, but by raising the turn, you get protection or value.

Re: 2/4 - Should I lay this AQs down?
 

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If you are winning, you want to either charge UTG, or make him fold.
You invest 2BB both ways, but by raising the turn, you get protection or value.

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Ok, I see your point. My problem is that I don't think I'm winning here. I think I'm either dominated or crushed by AK,AT, or 10s. And what if he calls my turn raise, then donk bets the river? That would cost me 3BB.

Re: 2/4 - Should I lay this AQs down?
 

I honestly don't know what you are so scared of. Plenty of players 3-bet top pair flush draw. His aggression is reasonable, especially over such a small sample, so I can't just put 2 pair or better in his hand. Charge the draws on the turn. If the flush misses the river, and he donks you, I probably pay him off (and take a lot of notes when he shows the winner), but I think that is going to happen rather infrequently.

Re: 2/4 - Should I lay this AQs down?
 

Oh alright, I'll try and raise it next time. Geez.
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