Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

I get this at least a few times a week:

NL holdem ring games, a player will push all in, and another player WITHOUT cards will ask how much that is. I always say, sorry, you don't have cards. Then they get all pissy that they think they are mystically entitled to slow down the game to get a chip count when they have ZERO PENDING ACTION in the hand! Man, these F'in learned fom the WPT morons are really getting ridiculous. They all think they know every single rule and yet have zero clue.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I get this at least a few times a week:

NL holdem ring games, a player will push all in, and another player WITHOUT cards will ask how much that is. I always say, sorry, you don't have cards. Then they get all pissy that they think they are mystically entitled to slow down the game to get a chip count when they have ZERO PENDING ACTION in the hand! Man, these F'in learned fom the WPT morons are really getting ridiculous. They all think they know every single rule and yet have zero clue.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could live with this one* if we could find a way to put an end to group decisions on a heads up pot after one player pushes (or group decsions in general). In recent months I've had as many as three players openly advise a player whether or not to call my all in or covering pushes. This isn't the biggest limits, but usually in games with $5 or $10 blinds and $300 to $2000 stacks. Often this total breech of ettiquette is done be decent players currently beating the games.

I have three or four ridiculous true stories already written in my disorganized mind - if I get the chance and mood I'll post them. But I'm thinking of a more important post, sorting out the problems we probably have to adjust to as players (that can't easily be controlled with policy or whatever), versus ones that the card clubs could control that in fact hurt the growth of the game. **

Anyway, TV poker has brought in lots of new players, but I get the impression when they watch the WPT or whatever they actually believe that the players can hear Mike Sexton's commentary.

~ Rick

* Photoc - In all seriousness, I'd like to get rid of the problem you mention too, but I haven't seen it much and it doesn't effect (affect? -grammar brain fart in progress) the action much or isn't super unfair compared to some of the other BS I'm seeing.

** An example of something that we probably can't stop and should be able to live with is players giving away the fact that they are folding in multiway pots with hand motion tells. But a top player understands he gets helped by this more often then he gets hurt by it and it's difficult for the dealers to put a stop to it in the real world.

Third party coffee-housing is another story. I have the feeling the Las Vegas dealers do a better job of controlling this than the LA dealers for reasons I'll get into in a future post.

PS Sorry to hijack your rant [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

Affect.

Affect is the verby one and effect is the weirdo one. "To the effect of blah blah blah"

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
effect is the weirdo one.

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I'll take "Most often a noun in usage" for $100, Alex.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

The fact that they THINK they know every single rule is their fault. Because they should know that they don't.

But the fact that they don't know every single rule is something that I think should be addressed by poker-rooms.
They are less likely to learn the rules as quickly otherwise.

Lots of n00bs playing poker who just don't know any rules at all and I think they should be elaborated just a bit more so that they are given at least SOME clue.

Some of these that I think can be posted might include elaborating on the 'one player per hand' rule to specifically state that if you aren't in the hand you are not allowed to comment on the hand in progress nor are you allowed to discuss the cards that you mucked because that knowledge could influence the other players.

Stuff like that.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

You do realize that people want to sit down and play as fast as they can. They don't want to sit around and read rules or have someone teach it to them. I've tried, and they just say "yeah yeah, lets play" and so on.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Third party coffee-housing is another story. I have the feeling the Las Vegas dealers do a better job of controlling this than the LA dealers for reasons I'll get into in a future post.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true for the most part.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

Rough shift?

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

because most people are idiots. duh.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
effect is the weirdo one.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll take "Most often a noun in usage" for $100, Alex.

[/ QUOTE ]


Good Stuff - ROFL [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You do realize that people want to sit down and play as fast as they can. They don't want to sit around and read rules or have someone teach it to them. I've tried, and they just say "yeah yeah, lets play" and so on.

[/ QUOTE ]

If my understanding is correct you are working as a dealer; in the case of the dealer they probably don't want to see any activity since they will percieve that it slows the game down.

When Hawaiian Garden and the Bike used hosts to start the games in the early days of the fixed buy-in no limit boom the playing hosts would, for the most part, keep the worse excesses under control (plus sell the re-buys from big racks with zero embarrassment/comment). Usually they would make a comment during the shuffle, so the game wasn't slowed down.

Once there were many games the host system was dropped at both clubs. Hawaiian Gardens does put up a "tip of the week" poster on the podium, often dealing with an etiquette issue. I'd say at this club the behavior is a little better, but it is hard to be certain.

~ Rick

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
NL holdem ring games, a player will push all in, and another player WITHOUT cards will ask how much that is. I always say, sorry, you don't have cards. Then they get all pissy...

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't take it personally.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

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In recent months I've had as many as three players openly advise a player whether or not to call my all in or covering pushes.

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Hi Rick,
How did it work out when you asked them after the hand was over not to do that again, assuming that's what you did?

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In recent months I've had as many as three players openly advise a player whether or not to call my all in or covering pushes.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi Rick,
How did it work out when you asked them after the hand was over not to do that again, assuming that's what you did?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are several somewhat long stories associated with this, some funny, some not so funny. They also lead to the bigger issue of what can and should be controlled, what probably can't or shouldn't be controlled (by card room staff), and how you as a player should handle these sorts of things in the meantime.

Unfortunately, it's about number fifty of things I need/want/have time to do so it's going to have to wait. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Regards,

Rick

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

Well, just a little perspective here:

You're talking about a cash game (NLHE) that was virtually unknown in casinos just a few years ago. The main reason why they're spreading so many NL games, and in fact, the reason why the tables are so stuffed in the first place is the influx of WPT trained n00bs, aka fools with money.

In fact, it could even be argued that the main reason any of us are there completing the prophecy about fools and money is because we also were introduced or re-introduced to the game via the WPT or via the Moneymaker effect.

So, if it is your plan (and a realistic goal) to walk out of the casino with some other fool's money in your pocket, perhaps you can afford to be a little gracious while the n00bs demonstrate their ignorance. After all, if they were a little more with it, it might actually turn into an evenly matched game (which is definitely -EV).

But yeah, the dealer's the one getting caught in the middle of this, since he's not getting to keep much of the fool's money, and he has to be the enforcer. Especially the herculean task of getting the coffehousers to STFU while not in the hand.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

are they specifically asking you to break down the stacks?

honestly I dont see the big deal. obviously no one is required to answer.


I usually play limit, and sometimes I'll be out of a hand, turn to talk to someone out of the game or whatever and look back at the table to see five players in with two bets a piece. Is it bad for me to ask someone who raised? I dont feel entitled to an answer but would appreciate one. I dont direct the question to the dealer and he is the last I'd expect to answer it.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, just a little perspective here:

You're talking about a cash game (NLHE) that was virtually unknown in casinos just a few years ago. The main reason why they're spreading so many NL games, and in fact, the reason why the tables are so stuffed in the first place is the influx of WPT trained n00bs, aka fools with money.

In fact, it could even be argued that the main reason any of us are there completing the prophecy about fools and money is because we also were introduced or re-introduced to the game via the WPT or via the Moneymaker effect.

So, if it is your plan (and a realistic goal) to walk out of the casino with some other fool's money in your pocket, perhaps you can afford to be a little gracious while the n00bs demonstrate their ignorance. After all, if they were a little more with it, it might actually turn into an evenly matched game (which is definitely -EV).

But yeah, the dealer's the one getting caught in the middle of this, since he's not getting to keep much of the fool's money, and he has to be the enforcer. Especially the herculean task of getting the coffehousers to STFU while not in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post but was it addressed to me? (It's under me in the post threading but doesn't seem in reference to my posts.) I ask because if I do get a chance to write about my experiences with coffeehousing and other problems, the "big picture" issues you mention will be included.

~ Rick

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

Not addressed to anyone in particular. I read the thread in flat mode and then hit reply.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

I dislike ignorant people/players..

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

It's pretty standard here for the dealer to cut the raise off from the call if it's a reraise or count down the initial raise. That's not the case in Vegas?

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

On a non-all-in raise, the dealer cuts the chips and counts out the total.

On an all-in, the dealer is to not touch the all-in players' chips until they are asked by someone else in the hand to count it down.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

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On a non-all-in raise, the dealer cuts the chips and counts out the total.

On an all-in, the dealer is to not touch the all-in players' chips until they are asked by someone else in the hand to count it down.

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I have never understood the why we should treat an all-in bet differently then an bet that is not all-in.

My own approach in NL is that if a player bets an amount that is easily identfiable I announce the amount of the bet. If the amount is not identfiable (but obviously a legal bet or raise)without breaking it down I simply announce "bet" or "raise" and do not count it until I am asked or it becomes necessary to do so to make sure that the pot is right or aother raise is of a sufficient size.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

Yet another reason I don't play NL cash games...

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

The main reason I don't play binky-limit NL is that I'm crap at it. The main reason I don't want to learn binky-limit NL well enough to be good at it is that those tables are inevitably populated by WPT wannabes. After you're done with all the posing, sullen stare downs, rules misinterpretations and related antics, you've barely got time to get a hand or two of poken in.

That, and although I can't really find that the quality of the social interaction at ANY poker table ever exceeds that of a ramshackle bowling alley at midnight, I can find a slightly higher caliber of conversation at the limit tables.

I mean after all, I've got better things to do with my life than sit around a table with 9 underaged kids, all wearing their WPT poker uniforms (shades, cap, etc) trying harder to look cool than to win anything. I mean, yeah, there's some real earning potential there, but I just don't like stealing candy from babies, so what's the point?

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

Part of the reason I avoid 18+ casinos like the plague.

When we go to California for a weekend getaway, we used to go to Morongo, but with their 18+ rule, we make extra effort to go to Commerce instead.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

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honestly I dont see the big deal. obviously no one is required to answer.

I usually play limit, and sometimes I'll be out of a hand, turn to talk to someone out of the game or whatever and look back at the table to see five players in with two bets a piece. Is it bad for me to ask someone who raised? I dont feel entitled to an answer but would appreciate one. I dont direct the question to the dealer and he is the last I'd expect to answer it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't do that. You're outta the hand, it doesn't matter to you, and asking the question or getting an answer can potentially impact the play a teeny bit. It's certainly possible one or more of the players now in the hand wasn't paying attention and himself doesn't know who raised. But I'm not gonna bitch about it if someone at the table does ask "who raised?"

And yeah, the rule in NL is that the dealer doesn't countdown the all-in bet unless/until another player in the hand asks for a count. Personally I think this is sometimes a time waster as we all watch the player contemplating the call stare for 30 seconds, THEN finally ask for a count, then ponder for another 30 seconds... dealer coulda been counting it down during that first 30.
But rules is rules and yeah, it can impact the outcome to have the dealer count it out. Think along the lines of, "Oh! Only $40? ok...I was thinking for some reason that was $80...I CALL!" Folks without a stake in the hand need to stay out of the way as best they can.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

I've said it so many times before. I'd rather play stud with the old timers/grouches or limit HE with less annoying people. I can't stand the running "expert" commentary on EVERY single hand. That and the posing (hat turned sideways, sunglasses, ipod, using poker terminology way too much,etc...) is just aggravating after a while.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Affect.

Affect is the verby one and effect is the weirdo one. "To the effect of blah blah blah"

[/ QUOTE ]

"effect" is also a verb.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

I feel the same way when I'm dealing these games. You can always spot the WPT Wannabe, think they have the game, but are usually the donks at the table....I laugh (Inside) everytime I get one of these morons ask me for a chip count when their not in the hand and how they get angry when you tell them...

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

As a dealer, we're not supposed to count down the chips until the other player involves ask.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

I usually play alot more online than live. I just played live at the Borgata yesterday and if I wasn't in the hand I would ask for chip counts just to get to the next hand. Somebody would go all in and the person facing the call decision would sit there and look like they didnt know what was going on. I like live play alot better but it is alot slower than online.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

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I usually play alot more online than live. I just played live at the Borgata yesterday and if I wasn't in the hand I would ask for chip counts just to get to the next hand. Somebody would go all in and the person facing the call decision would sit there and look like they didnt know what was going on. I like live play alot better but it is alot slower than online.

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Yes it is. Stop asking for chip counts when you aren't in the hand - the universe doesn't revolve around you.

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I usually play alot more online than live. I just played live at the Borgata yesterday and if I wasn't in the hand I would ask for chip counts just to get to the next hand. Somebody would go all in and the person facing the call decision would sit there and look like they didnt know what was going on. I like live play alot better but it is alot slower than online.

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please tell me your joking! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

this is the absolute WORST poker etiquette EVER. how many people yelled at your and gave you dirty looks? did you also tell people to "call" when another player went all in, and you weren't in the hand to speed up play?

Re: Why do players think they can do this when not in a hand?
 

While I agree w/ Photoc, there is something I hate even more. It really gets under my skin for some reason.
It really pisses me off when you have a guy at the table who folds PF, then asks the dealer to "run it out" after the hand ends on the flop or turn. Then what happens is that other people at the table start asking to have it done on hands that they fold PF. IMO, the dealer should never run it out for anybody that folds PF. I hate saying something because as a player because I don't want to do anything to ruin the mood of the other players. A happy table is a loose table.