2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

Just want to make sure I didn't get out of line or miss a bet in this hand.

<font color="blue"> Limper is 50/3 and passive
Blinds are slightly loose passive.</font>

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
7 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is Button with http://www.neildewhurst.com/wp-conte...c-cards/td.png http://www.neildewhurst.com/wp-conte...c-cards/qc.png
2 folds, MP1 calls, CO folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: http://www.neildewhurst.com/wp-conte...c-cards/3h.png http://www.neildewhurst.com/wp-conte...c-cards/qh.png http://www.neildewhurst.com/wp-conte...c-cards/7s.png (8SB, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: http://www.neildewhurst.com/wp-conte...c-cards/3s.png (5.5BB, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

River: http://www.neildewhurst.com/wp-conte...c-cards/ad.png (7.5BB, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Results:
Final pot: 7.5BB

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

I liked how you played this hand, but how often would you be up against a worse kicker, sevens, or a lower pocket pair? If he has calling station tendencies, I could see betting river.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

What was the river card? Assuming it's a blank, I think I'm betting here. There's a good number of hands out there that a loose passive will call with - any 7, lower pocket pair, worse kicker, even Ace high is possible. He got a decent price in the big blind, so he really could have called with a lot of weak hands (especially if they were suited). Anyone else betting this river?

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

yea, especially against this opponent, i would definately be betting the river.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

I have to agree. Bet the river. What was a pre flop raise attempting to accomplish here?

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

I'd bet the river too. More often than not, he won't have an ace to go with it.

I don't think I would have raised preflop though, or even called in some situations.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

Looks good, but I would bet the river. It is very doubtful he has a 3 since he would have shown so on the turn, and it is unlikely he has an ace given that he has called both the flop and turn.

So, he either has a FD, a queen, or a pocket pair. A pocket pair will most likely pay you off if you bet, you won't get any value from a FD either way, and you split the pot with a better queen anyway.

Edit: Or a 7, which pays you off. (I forgot the obvious)

Haupt_234

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

I think the preflop raise isn't that bad. The table was seven handed. He's got the button and trying to get heads up with a passive opponent, take the lead in the hand, and fold the blinds. It would depend on your table image at the time. If you haven't played a lot of hands lately, I'd raise.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

I don't mind the preflop raise here to isolate - against a 50/3 player, QTo is already ahead of most of his limping range. And he's passive. If you hit, you'll most likely win a couple more bets from him. If he misses, the preflop raise gives you folding equity.

Definitely bet that river. There's no reason to believe that Villain has a better hand here. You'll get called by a worse hand here well more than 50% of the time.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

Sierra, although I agree with you, how do you figure "more than 50% of the time"? Just by feel from playing? Or did you take a more objective approach when coming up with that?

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

I'd bet the river as well. Not against a solid player tho. Also remember that you now tie with KQ. Your hand improved a lot by that 2nd 3 and the ace.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

i like the hand. i think a river bet is slightly +EV, although i think it is marginal and not a huge deal either way. does everyone understand that the 50/3 is out and we are against the "slightly loose and passive" BB? i'm not arguing against a bet, i'm just saying factor in the times we get beat by a 3 or ace and split with another Q plus the times he has [censored] and folds to our river bet into the times he calls with his 7 or 88 or whatever and i don't think it's a big money maker/loser over the longterm.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

I limp pre-flop.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
I limp pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

why?

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I limp pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cuz I"m an idiot and I thought it said the CO folded. When I looked at the title of the post-ie, "1 limper"--I thought, hmm, a diffeent QT hand?

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I limp pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cuz I"m an idiot and I thought it said the CO folded. When I looked at the title of the post-ie, "1 limper"--I thought, hmm, a diffeent QT hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think given the description of the blinds and keeping the pot small for bigger mistakes, yada, yada type deal. i think there is merit in limping, but raising is better.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sierra, although I agree with you, how do you figure "more than 50% of the time"? Just by feel from playing? Or did you take a more objective approach when coming up with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sort of half and half. I just think of all the different hand ranges that a loose passive Villain is going to have on the river.

If Villain has a Q, you now chop with any other Q except AQ, Q7, and Q3. All 3 of those hands would give more action than that I think (each of those would probably bet out the flop) So I'm not concerned as much about losing to a Q.

If Villain has a 3, I also think you hear about that sooner. If Villain drew out on you with just a naked A, so be it. But I think there are very few hands that he's calling with A high all the way to the river on a non-draw friendly board. My biggest concern is A7 just drew out on you.

On the other hand, there's lots of hands that a loose passive is going to call with on this river that you are ahead of. Especially since he was in the BB and his initial starting hand range is most likely wider than it may otherwise be. He'll call on the end with any 7, from K7 right on down to 74. And he'll also call with any pocket pair. I think this range of hands that you beat will be higher than the range of hands that beat you.

So it's just a general objective approach, not an exact counting and weighting system of a hand range.

Hope that helps!

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I would have raised preflop though, or even called in some situations.

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First of all WOW!!! That converter you are using is TOTALLY COOL!!!!! Ok, now that thats out of my system . . . QTo is one of those hands that is really good against weak limpers. I think this guys stats exemplify loosness [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] so limping is good, with the added value of folding the blinds I think that a raise is good PF. (Unless you are SURE that the blinds will call, and play semi-decently. In that case you will be up against 3 opponents with a marginal holding.)

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

Raising is a terrible play here. It is highly unlikely that you have a better hand than the limper, nor will you force any better hand from the blinds (or possibly any hand at all) to fold in a game like the one you describe. By raising you are a building a bigger pot with a hand in which you are likely behind. Bad idea.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raising is a terrible play here. It is highly unlikely that you have a better hand than the limper, nor will you force any better hand from the blinds (or possibly any hand at all) to fold in a game like the one you describe. By raising you are a building a bigger pot with a hand in which you are likely behind. Bad idea.

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First of all, the limper is 50/3. QTo is likely to fair very well against the limper's hand range here.

Secondly, the limper is passive. Hero can easily outplay him postflop.

Thirdly, a raise here WILL get a lot of better hands to fold in the blinds that you want to fold - any weak offsuit A or K will fold to a raise here often enough.

Raising here is definitely a good play. It's getting beyond the strict "1 limper, QT on the button, I fold" and recognizing that the playing conditions for the hand you have are good.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raising is a terrible play here. It is highly unlikely that you have a better hand than the limper, nor will you force any better hand from the blinds (or possibly any hand at all) to fold in a game like the one you describe. By raising you are a building a bigger pot with a hand in which you are likely behind. Bad idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. you are funny.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raising is a terrible play here. It is highly unlikely that you have a better hand than the limper, nor will you force any better hand from the blinds (or possibly any hand at all) to fold in a game like the one you describe. By raising you are a building a bigger pot with a hand in which you are likely behind. Bad idea.


[/ QUOTE ]

I can honestly say I think every sentence you wrote was wrong. The last one is correct but is irrelevant.

Haupt_234

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

Stastically, the average hand is Q7. He plays half the hands, so that means he's playing any hand better than Q7. Sure, he could have a lot of connecter type hands or suited types of hands that you are ahead of, but even those hands are only a 3:2 underdog in most cases. He also could have a pair, any ace, or any king, all of which are ahead of you. Your hand is not much better than his range if it's better at all. I stand by my statement that raising here is a bad idea. I limp here and then after the Q hits I am going to bleed him as much as I can.

If someone has PokerStove in front of them (I'm at work), I'd love to see what sort of equity QT has against his range. I'm betting it's break even at best.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
If someone has PokerStove in front of them (I'm at work), I'd love to see what sort of equity QT has against his range. I'm betting it's break even at best.


[/ QUOTE ]

So what your saying is you don't think you can beat a 50/3 passive limper, in position, with a hand that is likely better. When he is likely to make many postflop mistakes.

I agree that folding is correct in this situation if you don't play well postflop.

Haupt_234

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

No, that's not what I said. I said I think you have to consider the likelihood that you don't have the best hand pre-flop.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
Stastically, the average hand is Q7. He plays half the hands, so that means he's playing any hand better than Q7. Sure, he could have a lot of connecter type hands or suited types of hands that you are ahead of, but even those hands are only a 3:2 underdog in most cases. He also could have a pair, any ace, or any king, all of which are ahead of you. Your hand is not much better than his range if it's better at all. I stand by my statement that raising here is a bad idea. I limp here and then after the Q hits I am going to bleed him as much as I can.

If someone has PokerStove in front of them (I'm at work), I'd love to see what sort of equity QT has against his range. I'm betting it's break even at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think i would ask what sample size we have if i was really going to try to analyze this guy. also, different donks have different relative values that they assign to different hands. some love all suited hands, some will play any ace, some love connectors or pp's; the type of donk will vary. i am not arguing with you because i have certain thoughts on limping being the better play at a higher limit or with more "thinking" opponents, but we certainly don't need to assign a range to him based on how we ascertain hand value, as his system is likely different. it could be based on anything from his results-oriented past to what he sees on TV to what his lucky number may be. my point is, his 50% may not be the top spectrum of hand values and either way with position QTo fares well against his range and regardless is not a huge dog before the flop. also, any dead money from the blinds(which is my bigger issue with raising since they are often coming along REALLY bloating the pot)if they fold would give us some overlay. and we usually get a free card on the flop.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stastically, the average hand is Q7. He plays half the hands, so that means he's playing any hand better than Q7. Sure, he could have a lot of connecter type hands or suited types of hands that you are ahead of, but even those hands are only a 3:2 underdog in most cases. He also could have a pair, any ace, or any king, all of which are ahead of you. Your hand is not much better than his range if it's better at all. I stand by my statement that raising here is a bad idea. I limp here and then after the Q hits I am going to bleed him as much as I can.

If someone has PokerStove in front of them (I'm at work), I'd love to see what sort of equity QT has against his range. I'm betting it's break even at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think i would ask what sample size we have if i was really going to try to analyze this guy. also, different donks have different relative values that they assign to different hands. some love all suited hands, some will play any ace, some love connectors or pp's; the type of donk will vary. i am not arguing with you because i have certain thoughts on limping being the better play at a higher limit or with more "thinking" opponents, but we certainly don't need to assign a range to him based on how we ascertain hand value, as his system is likely different. it could be based on anything from his results-oriented past to what he sees on TV to what his lucky number may be. my point is, his 50% may not be the top spectrum of hand values and either way with position QTo fares well against his range and regardless is not a huge dog before the flop. also, any dead money from the blinds(which is my bigger issue with raising since they are often coming along REALLY bloating the pot)if they fold would give us some overlay. and we usually get a free card on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very well said!

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

You do make a good point here about how to analyze his range. We've all seen guys who always play their birthdays or nonsense like that. I still think raising with this weak of a hand is a speculative move at best though, since any action you get after the flop is gonna be bad news with a pot that's suddenly gotten big.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

bet the river.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
If someone has PokerStove in front of them (I'm at work), I'd love to see what sort of equity QT has against his range. I'm betting it's break even at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pokerstove says QTo has 48.5% equity against the top 50% of hands. Add in our good position, aggressive play, and weak opponent, and I'm still liking a raise here (especially if we have a good image at the table).

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pokerstove says QTo has 48.5% equity against the top 50% of hands. Add in our good position, aggressive play, and weak opponent, and I'm still liking a raise here (especially if we have a good image at the table).

[/ QUOTE ]

But don't forget - you're not against the top 50% of hands here. Once you take out the 3% he raises with, you are against a range that consists of the 4%-50% hands. This means that AA, KK, QQ and a couple others get taken out of the mix.

This should easily turn that 48.5% equity into a number that is over 50%.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pokerstove says QTo has 48.5% equity against the top 50% of hands. Add in our good position, aggressive play, and weak opponent, and I'm still liking a raise here (especially if we have a good image at the table).

[/ QUOTE ]

But don't forget - you're not against the top 50% of hands here. Once you take out the 3% he raises with, you are against a range that consists of the 4%-50% hands. This means that AA, KK, QQ and a couple others get taken out of the mix.

This should easily turn that 48.5% equity into a number that is over 50%.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was interested in seeing this, thanks guys. As others have already mentioned, we aren't raising here just for our equity, but to take the pot later when no one hits, see cards cheaply, etc. The poster questioning the raise shouldn't be bogged down in the equity in this situation, but rather look at how the hand will be played postflop.

Also, I think this is an easy river bet. I have the tendency to be a little weak on the river when I have kicker trouble, but here we don't--we're chopping. If he shows us an A or 3, so be it, we'll see a 7 or pocket pair much more often IMHO.

Re: 2/4 QTo against 1 limper
 

Actually, once you remove his top 3% of hands he raises with (AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKo, AKs), pokerstove has the equity right about 50-50. So raisy daisy!