I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

Villain in this hand was consistenlty raising or check-raising my steals. He would always check-raise with any piece of the board, and it was seriously pissing me off. He has TAGgish stats and seems to play well postflop, but I would say that his one weakness is that he badly overvalues 1-pair hands headsup.

I know that he has no king here, but can I see a showdown? The turn was kinda ugly.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero ???

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

I don't see why Villain can't have a K here. Since you didn't mention that you thought he was coming after you with airballs I suggest you get your head screwed on straight and fold.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

[ QUOTE ]
I suggest you get your head screwed on straight and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I needed that [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Still, I think a King waits for the turn here.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I suggest you get your head screwed on straight and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I needed that [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Still, I think a King waits for the turn here.

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Not if he's a good TAG and he realizes that he has been abusing you lately by fastplaying all types of hands.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

I'd fold. I think you're probably behind and although you will often have six outs here, that is not enough to call and you might be drawing dead.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I suggest you get your head screwed on straight and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I needed that [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Still, I think a King waits for the turn here.

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Not if he's a good TAG and he realizes that he has been abusing you lately by fastplaying all types of hands.

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That's quite an assumption. Folding this hand blows chunks out of my ass IMO.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

You have two options here once you get raised on that flop.

1. See a showdown.
2. Move down to $5-$10

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have two options here once you get raised on that flop.

1. See a showdown.
2. Move down to $5-$10

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems ridiculously oversimplified.


Re: the hand, I think giving up this turn is fine. I would probably commit to showdown on a non-diamond turn.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think giving up this turn is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I wish I had, but I decided to look him up this time. I got shown 4 2 offsuit no diamond for bottom pair, bet the whole way.

Meh, back to the grind.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have two options here once you get raised on that flop.

1. See a showdown.
2. Move down to $5-$10

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems ridiculously oversimplified.


Re: the hand, I think giving up this turn is fine. I would probably commit to showdown on a non-diamond turn.

[/ QUOTE ]


Nut no-pair is definitely enough to see a showdown here. An overplaying/tilting TAG is going to be raising Ax sometimes on this flop, sometimes making a pure bluff.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have two options here once you get raised on that flop.

1. See a showdown.
2. Move down to $5-$10

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems ridiculously oversimplified.

[/ QUOTE ]

And yet accurate.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have two options here once you get raised on that flop.

1. See a showdown.
2. Move down to $5-$10

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems ridiculously oversimplified.

[/ QUOTE ]

And yet accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. What do you monkeys think the bluffing frequency of a TAG is on this flop, and do you even know how high it needs to be when you're drawing dead to the K / flush?

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have two options here once you get raised on that flop.

1. See a showdown.
2. Move down to $5-$10

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems ridiculously oversimplified.

[/ QUOTE ]

And yet accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. What do you monkeys think the bluffing frequency of a TAG is on this flop, and do you even know how high it needs to be when you're drawing dead to the K / flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

He doesn't have to be bluffing for us to be ahead. You may be able to fold some rivers since he probably stops value betting A7 at that point.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have two options here once you get raised on that flop.

1. See a showdown.
2. Move down to $5-$10

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems ridiculously oversimplified.

[/ QUOTE ]

And yet accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. What do you monkeys think the bluffing frequency of a TAG is on this flop, and do you even know how high it needs to be when you're drawing dead to the K / flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

He doesn't have to be bluffing for us to be ahead. You may be able to fold some rivers since he probably stops value betting A7 at that point.

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So are you calling the turn and check folding the river? I still think folding this turn is best since even if he is bluffing, he could have as many as 14 outs and will value bet us mercilessly (the aggro w/ one pair HU read) once we start checking to him.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

[ QUOTE ]
He would always check-raise with any piece of the board,...

...his one weakness is that he badly overvalues 1-pair hands headsup.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you got a read, why not go with it and fold the turn bet?

Taking this hand to showdown is an error I make all the time myself, even when I have the same read on opponents as you do. I kick myself everytime when I see that my read was correct yet again, but I decided to not follow it because I have learnt that I should see a showdown with AQ on a K2K board.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have two options here once you get raised on that flop.

1. See a showdown.
2. Move down to $5-$10

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems ridiculously oversimplified.

[/ QUOTE ]

And yet accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are ridiculous...this is not accurate at all. There is a certain frequency with which you should be willing to call down ace high hands, but that does not mean every hand. It's funny how people seem intent on always calling down with ace high, otherwise they think they are somehow going to lose value. It's ok to fold ace high once in a while. And for the record, I see less and less bluffs in these types of situations, b/c everyone knows you are going to call down with ace high, so he can easily value bet with a 2, or a low pocket pair.

And ot McGahee, I don't know how you read what I wrote, but I merely stated that it's not out of the question for him to have a K and plya it this way, as most good TAG's who have been fastplaying will continue to do. I don't know where you got that I think you should fold from that.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have two options here once you get raised on that flop.

1. See a showdown.
2. Move down to $5-$10

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems ridiculously oversimplified.

[/ QUOTE ]

And yet accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are ridiculous...this is not accurate at all. There is a certain frequency with which you should be willing to call down ace high hands, but that does not mean every hand. It's funny how people seem intent on always calling down with ace high, otherwise they think they are somehow going to lose value. It's ok to fold ace high once in a while. And for the record, I see less and less bluffs in these types of situations, b/c everyone knows you are going to call down with ace high, so he can easily value bet with a 2, or a low pocket pair.

And ot McGahee, I don't know how you read what I wrote, but I merely stated that it's not out of the question for him to have a K and plya it this way, as most good TAG's who have been fastplaying will continue to do. I don't know where you got that I think you should fold from that.

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There are many worse boards to be calling down with AQ with than this KK82 (yeah, yeah, the diamond turn sucked) board. You really have to see a showdown here.

This isn't an Ace high question, we have AQ. Yeah, if I have A3 I'm probably dumping this hand on the turn.



I am a TAG player. There are times I call PF raises from the SB in the BB with Ax instead of 3-betting, with the plan of raising the flop. I'm not the only TAG that would do something like this. Also, tilting/overplaying/frustrated TAGs are going to continuation bet the river so if we call that turn we really need to commit to a showdown.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

Guys the feedback in this thread has been great, thanks. I expected to get slapped around - and I did [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] - but there have been well thought out responses from many people. Thanks.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't an Ace high question, we have AQ. Yeah, if I have A3 I'm probably dumping this hand on the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that you should normally call down with AQ on a K2K8 board. But this is not a normal AQ on a K2K8 board hand. The OP has actually presented a good read.

The OP says: "He would always check-raise with any piece of the board,.." and "..but I would say that his one weakness is that he badly overvalues 1-pair hands headsup".

That comment and the action indicates that you are behind enough times to make a good fold on turn. If he has a pair (a lone 2, 33,44 etc) you lose the pot 8 out of 10 times. If he has a king, he have you crushed, the same goes if he raised with a flush draw flop).

When you call down you probably have to put in two bets to win 6, is it worth it?

The question is how often does he make this play with a worse Ace? Given the fact that the player "always check-raise with any piece of the board" and that he "badly overvalues 1-pair hands headsup", I can not see the value in calling down.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

I think the turn [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] swings this to a fold for me, but I usually find myself very torn in these spots. I think I've been calling down A high wayyy too much due to spots like these.

If we get to the river, can we really check/fold? Isn't that very exploitable?

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

[ QUOTE ]
If we get to the river, can we really check/fold? Isn't that very exploitable?

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If I call the turn (which I did) then it is because I plan on showing the hand down. It makes no sense to call the turn and then fold the river.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

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It makes no sense to call the turn and then fold the river.

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i beg u not to say this

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

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[ QUOTE ]
It makes no sense to call the turn and then fold the river.

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i beg u not to say this

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lol u use threaded mode

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

i cant talk to my mother so i talk to my diary

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have two options here once you get raised on that flop.

1. See a showdown.
2. Move down to $5-$10

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont like this. villain raises w/ any piece. if this read is correct, any piece includes a flush draw. draw comes in, now hero is toast if his read is correct. perhaps you could argue that the draw doesnt represent a large enough part of the range (along w/ the fact that will come in 1/3rd of the time), but until you show me this mathematically, I think youre advice is off.

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If we get to the river, can we really check/fold? Isn't that very exploitable?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I call the turn (which I did) then it is because I plan on showing the hand down. It makes no sense to call the turn and then fold the river.

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wouldnt this be a rare case where it would make sense if a diamond fell on the river (given your read)?

Re: I know this [censored]-head doesn\'t have a King
 

[ QUOTE ]
And ot McGahee, I don't know how you read what I wrote, but I merely stated that it's not out of the question for him to have a K and plya it this way, as most good TAG's who have been fastplaying will continue to do. I don't know where you got that I think you should fold from that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was sort of responding to the entire thread and not just you up until that point; which made it sound like folding is a no-brainer. I found this consensus shocking and tried not to insult anyone and made sure to include "IMO".

I'm admittadly a smalltime 5/10 player so maybe you're right. Maybe @10/20 there is more 3rd level "I know that he knows that I'm always calling down with Ace high". If anybody (besides me) is even remotely capable of playing a K like that then I guess I'm in for a real culture shock when i move up.