How ugly is this?
 

Generic scenario, i am coaching a friend. A loose aggressive player open raises UTG 4 handed. He is fine, but is too agressive and showdowns too much. My friend calls in the BB with ATo. Flop is K53 with two diamonds. My friend checks, villian checks beihnd. Turn is the 4d and my friend check-folds.

Re: How ugly is this?
 

8/10.

Re: How ugly is this?
 

I do this a lot but if he is way out of line preflop I think its easier to play by 3 betting.

-DeathDonkey

Re: How ugly is this?
 

what range to do you guys think a player who fits this profile [ QUOTE ]
A loose aggressive player open raises UTG 4 handed. He is fine, but is too agressive and showdowns too much"

[/ QUOTE ]
checks behind on the flop?

Re: How ugly is this?
 

Do you not turbo 3 bet this most of the time?

Re: How ugly is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you not turbo 3 bet this most of the time?

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not speaking for DD, but I 3-bet this most always against 33ish+/22ish+ guys 4 handed.

Re: How ugly is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you not turbo 3 bet this most of the time?

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Ya.

Re: How ugly is this?
 

tough to say. Id usually 3bet pre with a good showdownable hand, where as if he was more sane Id call (more for post flop reasons), but against a lag Id rather start this hand up with what is likely the best holding and get to showdown (depending on action and board that hits).

I assume hes c/ring this flop or c/cing down or something

Re: How ugly is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I assume hes c/ring this flop or c/cing down or something

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Given that he's planning on either a flop c/r or c/c down, how does the flop or turn change things so drastically that it turns into a c/f, c/f?

Re: How ugly is this?
 

I think the limit here matters a fair bit.

Re: How ugly is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the limit here matters a fair bit.

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How about your thoughts on 10, 20, and 50?

Re: How ugly is this?
 

I`d 3-bet preflop.
Postflop is fine.

Re: How ugly is this?
 

In my experience when a LAG checks behind on the flop he has something very strong, so check/fold the turn is best.

Re: How ugly is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In my experience when a LAG checks behind on the flop he has something very strong, so check/fold the turn is best.

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I agree with this whole heartily. All to often I had flopped a good draw or small pair vs the PFR then I try and donk turn after the flop checks around and inevitably I feel the whiplash of the bet/raise any button by the pfr and usually the nuts shown to me in the SD, and I get sick because that play is so transpareant, it makes me feel like I should stop playing mid stakes $1.35/2.7 limit and drop back down to .02/.04 on stars.

Re: How ugly is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the limit here matters a fair bit.

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why

Re: How ugly is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In my experience when a LAG checks behind on the flop he has something very strong, so check/fold the turn is best.

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or sometimes he just has utter crap

Re: How ugly is this?
 

I'd like making a turn bet to try to take it down.

I don't think 3Betting pf is so great as we will be out of position.

Re: How ugly is this?
 

I think people overestimate how often this is a monster. I think it's close but I tend to always bet this turn.

Re: How ugly is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you not turbo 3 bet this most of the time?

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Correct I often just call with ATo even 3 handed in the BB. I am fairly comfortable about my ability to not fold the best hand even when I "miss" the flop. If that's true I'm not giving too much up am I?

-DeathDonkey

Re: How ugly is this?
 

I would at least call this turn, probably check/fold the river. I think that this check behind, without history, is fairly often a miss.

I think those who are saying bet the turn are wayyy off on this one. Why do you want to "take it down", when that means you were ahead anyway? The pot is only 2 BB, but if you can induce a bluff, thats 1 BB. He only hits a 6 outer 6/46 ~ 13% here.

Re: How ugly is this?
 

but I bet with ANY hand

Re: How ugly is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
but I bet with ANY hand

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What's that meant to mean?? Play hands on their merits = win $$.

Betting here with AT bluffs no better hands and folds all worse hands (pretty much). These are bad things to do in a tiny pot.

Re: How ugly is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but I bet with ANY hand

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What's that meant to mean?? Play hands on their merits = win $$.

Betting here with AT bluffs no better hands and folds all worse hands (pretty much). These are bad things to do in a tiny pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Risten to the hot dog.

Surf

Re: How ugly is this?
 

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Betting here with AT bluffs no better hands and folds all worse hands (pretty much). These are bad things to do in a tiny pot.

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Sometimes it's better to bet the turn to avoid being bluffed out of the pot by a worse hand, but only when you have a hand that isn't worth calling 2 more BBs. It applies to this hand.

Re: How ugly is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Betting here with AT bluffs no better hands and folds all worse hands (pretty much). These are bad things to do in a tiny pot.

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Sometimes it's better to bet the turn to avoid being bluffed out of the pot by a worse hand, but only when you have a hand that isn't worth calling 2 more BBs. It applies to this hand.

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This is a very bleak (and profit minimising) outlook of poker.

Re: How ugly is this?
 

I am the one who played this hand.
I 3 bet preflop 80% of the time here, but i dont really see the error in calling and c/r most flops.
Once the flop goes check check, betting the turn is a huge error IMO. The board has a 3 straight, and 3 diamonds, and my villian is a LAG. He could easily bluff raise me with a worse hand here, but bet/calling this turn is pretty terrible imo.
I think c/c the turn and c/c safe rivers is probably a decent line to see what villian checks behind on the flop, but this turn made it so villian will bluff raise us or have use drawing dead. I just didn't think paying 2 bets in a small pot to showdown was worth it here.

PS i think when lags check behind they have a fairly wide range of a very good hand, ace high and intending to showdown, or total air. I think auto betting turns after lags check behind the flop is a huge error.

Re: How ugly is this?
 

Although this is often a strong hand, lags are often unpredictable and a lot of the time they will have ace high or a hand like JQ that chose to play this way (yea i know jq usually bets the flop but sometimes lags are just weird). Often if they are running bad they will play more passively with their weaker hands that have showdown value.

For this reason I think this is worth a turn call, but I would check/fold the river. I think this spot is kind of interesting because if you feel you would be correct to call a river bet from this opponent, I dont think the turn call is correct. In other words, it becomes kind of a reverse implied odds situation since you are so rarely ahead when you call a river bet.

Here , however, I dont think a river call would have a positive EV, so you can invest one bet to call the turn because weaker aces that would check behind or a bluff that would give up on the river makes up enough of his range. Thats just my opinion of course.

I also agree with All1n that a turn bet is bad here for the reasons he stated.

Re: How ugly is this?
 

Sometimes when I am playing a ton of tables, I forget I am the one who raised PF, I look at the Kxx flop and check because I missed.