Going broke with 1 pair
 

Villain here seemed loose and aggressive, but didn't have enough hands on him for a real read.

Coming from limit, I have a real problem laying hands like this one down. Normally I'll fold TPTK if villain keeps firing, but here the villain seemed aggressive enough that he could be on a flush draw. However, even if that were the case with the flop c/r, I suppose I need to scratch that thought when he fires again on the turn, no?

Once I get to the river, I think I sucked out on enough A9, A4, or 94 hands to call getting about 3.5:1.

So, call flop, fold turn, call river?

How does my pf raise look? I am really beginning to hate AK, and I've been trying to keep my raises with it fairly small to avoid playing in bit pots (obviously doesn't work though, does it?)

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($43.75)
Hero ($50)
MP1 ($31.91)
MP2 ($35.70)
MP3 ($108.70)
CO ($43.19)
Button ($44.60)
SB ($72.65)
BB ($30.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $6</font>, Hero calls $3.

Turn: ($16.25) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $8.71</font>, Hero calls $8.71.

River: ($33.67) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB calls $13.34 (All-In), Hero calls $13.34.

Final Pot: $60.35

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

On the flop, min-raise usually means TPTK not good... So I'd fold to his raise, or call the flop bet, but fold to the turn bet. Villain really seems to like his hand...

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

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On the flop, min-raise usually means TPTK not good

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I disagree with this 100%. I see people min raise the flop with all sorts of [censored] that TPTK crushes. That said, usually a flop minraise followed by a big bet on the turn means that Villian has a solid hand. Keep in mind though, some Villians think A10 is the nuts on this flop. No way I don't get my stack in here unless I have a read that Villian is solid/nitty

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

i disagree with the previous post. I actually don't mind how you played this.
I disagree with the FIRST post I mean

On the flop don't fold to a tiny little minraise. You just flopped a great hand. At least call and see what the turn brings. Your position will help evaluate the turn.

The turn is where you should decide to fold or push. There is no benifit to calling here. You are not folding the river if you call the turn. Villian may be on a draw or like you said could have 2 pair. Once the river comes he may well check/fold an unfavorable river. Folding the turn is read dependant. If villian is fully capable of doing this with AJ A10 or some other Ace-rag you can probably push the turn.

As played call the river for sure!

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

I am tempted to play it the same, but fold the river.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am tempted to play it the same, but fold the river

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Why call the turn if you fold to a less than 1/2 pot river bet? We have to know all of Villians chips are going in on the river when we call the turn, just based on stack sizes. I play the flop the same, but I think that we should push or fold the turn.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

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I am tempted to play it the same, but fold the river.

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Madness

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

Eh AZplaya you are right... I just pretty much know I'm beat when he leads the turn... so I guess we just fold the turn and paddle our weak tight canoe away

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

I'm tempted to say the villain probably has top pair with the nut flush draw.

I sometimes check behind on the flop here.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

This is not one pair, this is two pair. And this looks like a pretty good board for A-K. Reasonable hands you're behind are A-Q, 4-4, and 9-9. Turn and river are good because you're now ahead of A-4 and A-9. Also, I really disagree that the min raise means strength. Some players will min-raise w/ any draw, or if they catch any part of the flop. I would say it's a little more likely that he's strong because it's a check-raise.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

how about if you three bet the flop...fold to a push or any other resistance. Block bet the turn, check river. thoughts?

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

I like a 3-bet on the flop when min-raised to make it $15 or so. He'll usually fold there if he doesn't have a good hand or raise if he does. And I'm happy with winning that amount. It also lets me get away from the hand when I'm beat.

This will lose value from bluffers and lower kickers unfortuantly, but it makes sure you are not playing for stacks when you may very well be way behind.

As played on the flop call, turn is difficult. I think you need to decide before you call if you are willing to play for stacks on a wet board like that if you read him as super agro. If so just push the turn else fold. I don't like a call on the turn either.

As played up to the river, I can't see how you can fold to a shortie with those pot odds.


[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, min-raise usually means TPTK not good... So I'd fold to his raise, or call the flop bet, but fold to the turn bet. Villain really seems to like his hand...

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It often means they might be trying to steal if they've had success with it before. They could be trying to steal with a semi-bluff like a fd, gutshot, lower pair, lower kicker, etc. There's not way I lay down this hand to a min-raise.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

So for a $14 investment into a $7 pot Villain makes 2p2 fold TPTK? That seems so disastrously exploitable given that 2p2 is cbetting the flop with such a wide range...is that ok cos most Villains aren't actually exploiting?

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

Mini check-raise on flop, 1/2 pot turn and only a small bet to call on end. You will see a worse ace or even a draw so often here that no way can I find a fold. Nicely played.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

i think the way this hand played out most people here couldnt get away from it. I would play it nearly the same

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, min-raise usually means TPTK not good

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This is opponent-dependant. It could easily be a draw or a marginal made hand tryi g to see where it's at. But you can't say that TPTK is usually not good here.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

Bearing in mind villain started with only 60 BBs, I think I'd play this the same. The only difficult street is the turn in my view, as AQ is a very plausible hand for him to check/raise the flop with. However, I'd still put his likeliest holding as an ace with a worse kicker and call (I think I could find a fold if he started with 100BB).

River is a very easy call since you now have the nut two pair and are getting great odds.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

if this is a set its great pot management by villain

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

Shove the turn. You're calling a bet on a blank river anyways, and villain does not have air here (and if he did, he wouldn't bluff the river, so just calling doesn't induce any bluffs). I think villain's too short to seriously consider folding, plus he might easily be on a draw.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

I just reraise him AI on the flop , he only has like 22 left and was only playing with about 1/2 stack PF. If you are gonna just call down his stack anyways why not just get it all in on the flop?

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

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I just reraise him AI on the flop , he only has like 22 left and was only playing with about 1/2 stack PF. If you are gonna just call down his stack anyways why not just get it all in on the flop?

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Because you lose the same if behind and may not win as much if ahead? Because you lose the value of your position for the rest of the hand?

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

just push the turn.

yes you'll get 1/2 stacked against a set sometimes. oh well.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

What's with all these damn Limit players coming over to NL?

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

Do your villains call a 4x pf raise OOP with Ax? Gee, I must be playing on the wrong sites.

I'd expect a villain to call with any PP or AQ+, maybe even ATs+ but definitely not any ace.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

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Do your villains call a 4x pf raise OOP with Ax? Gee, I must be playing on the wrong sites.

I'd expect a villain to call with any PP or AQ+, maybe even ATs+ but definitely not any ace.

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My pf raises are consistently called by Ax.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

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I just reraise him AI on the flop , he only has like 22 left and was only playing with about 1/2 stack PF. If you are gonna just call down his stack anyways why not just get it all in on the flop?

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Because you lose the same if behind and may not win as much if ahead? Because you lose the value of your position for the rest of the hand?

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so just call down like a donk instead ? ok sure
You have the best hand here more than you dont and if he is willing to raise then he might also call the AI with a 2nd best hand like AJ. If he was bluff raising or semi bluff raising then you are not going to get much out of him anyways. You still get value out of your position by moving in. If he had a full stack I would play it different but shorties can't wait to get their money in with worse hands.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

I think you can fold the turn. Villain obviously isn't afraid that YOU have AQ, so he either has AQ or has AQ beaten already. He's basically betting the turn to give you incorrect odds to draw if you have 2 diamonds.

If he was on a diamond draw, I think he'd bet more on the turn. I think folding to the 1/2 pot turn bet is probably ok. I wouldn't fold to the min-raise on the flop, but that follow up lead for 1/2 pot on the turn screams strength to me.

On the river, he didn't get better or worse with that second Q. He either had you beaten already, or missed his draw and is bluffing. Since you called the turn, you now have to call the river and hope you were right that he was betting a flush draw.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

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Eh AZplaya you are right... I just pretty much know I'm beat when he leads the turn... so I guess we just fold the turn and paddle our weak tight canoe away

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lol

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

I'd go with a flop three-bet, call a push. Then I would beat my head against the padded walls when the villian turns over Q7d.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
I am tempted to play it the same, but fold the river


Why call the turn if you fold to a less than 1/2 pot river bet? We have to know all of Villians chips are going in on the river when we call the turn, just based on stack sizes. I play the flop the same, but I think that we should push or fold the turn.



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Thanks AZPlaya. I do this quite often call the turn but fold the river - you're spot on turn push/fold as it's going in on the river anyway if we call.

Based on villans stack size and the fact that that you describe him as loose and aggressive - I would now push the turn.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
...I am really beginning to hate AK, and I've been trying to keep my raises with it fairly small to avoid playing in bit pots (obviously doesn't work though, does it?)

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So your raise is bigger when you hold AA-QQ? I wouldn't vary your raises this way.

Since villain started with 60BBs, I'm tempted to just pay the set if he has it. Just push the turn.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just reraise him AI on the flop , he only has like 22 left and was only playing with about 1/2 stack PF. If you are gonna just call down his stack anyways why not just get it all in on the flop?

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Because you lose the same if behind and may not win as much if ahead? Because you lose the value of your position for the rest of the hand?

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so just call down like a donk instead ? ok sure
You have the best hand here more than you dont and if he is willing to raise then he might also call the AI with a 2nd best hand like AJ. If he was bluff raising or semi bluff raising then you are not going to get much out of him anyways. You still get value out of your position by moving in. If he had a full stack I would play it different but shorties can't wait to get their money in with worse hands.

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This isn't limit. In limit, 3-betting the flop in this situation is good because it gets more money in.

In No-Limit, 3-betting the flop in this situation is bad because it gets worse hands to fold too often, and you still lose your stack when you are behind.

Your line in NL should be about making the most money, not about "I don't want to look like a donk and just call down."

If looking like a Donkey makes me the most money, then buy me a ticket to the Hee-Haw train.

Having said that, I usually push the turn here. He could easily be on a draw, and by now there's too much money out there for Ax to fold.

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

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Shove the turn. You're calling a bet on a blank river anyways, and villain does not have air here (and if he did, he wouldn't bluff the river, so just calling doesn't induce any bluffs). I think villain's too short to seriously consider folding, plus he might easily be on a draw.

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I think this is the point. Villain is simply not deep enough. Although, without any reads I would just fold the flop.

regards,

dardo

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

Ok, so many of you put him on a draw.

How do you play if the Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] comes on the turn instead?

Re: Going broke with 1 pair
 

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Ok, so many of you put him on a draw.

How do you play if the Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] comes on the turn instead?

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Push, push and push. It's 60 BBs you don't even need a full reload. I think it's fine to stack off with TPTK for 60 BB in a HU pot at these stakes.