NL Day 2
 

I'm having a lot more fun playing NL so far... much more to think about and much easier to stay focused. The problem is, well, I'm not good. As you shall see, I have no shame.

Anyway, here are two questionable hands I have from today, along with my thoughts. Please also critique how I should be thinking through the hands...

Hand 1

Opponent is still relatively unknown at this point but seems on the loose side.

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $84
CO: $141.96
Button: $107.75
SB: $201.41
BB: $110.85

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I had been raising quite a bit and winning many pots with cbets on the flop. I figured A8s should be good enough to raise here, but honestly I have no idea.

<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($8.5, 3 players)

Cool, a pretty decent flop for my hand. I'll make a standard cbet.

SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $6</font>, CO folds, SB calls.

Could be an 8, maybe a straight draw, 2 pair, a set... what else goes here?

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($20.5, 2 players)

Okay, just pulled ahead of 2pair...

SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $13</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $41</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero ...</font>


Hand 2: Haha I suck.

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $86.70
UTG+1: $124.45
CO: $135
Button: $100
SB: $129.90
Hero: $81.40

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $4</font>, SB folds, Hero calls.

This guy had been pretty aggressive preflop. I figure I'm ahead of his range here, but I think I am overestimating the value of hands like AQo. Bad habit from limit. Should I be reraising this? Folding?

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($8.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $6</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $17</font>, Button calls.

On this board I figure I should be ahead often enough that a c/r will be profitable. Bad idea?

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($42.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $25</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $75</font>...

I guess I should know I am behind now. I couldn't fold though.

Re: NL Day 2
 

hand 1 i fold preflop. i've been considering openlimping UTG stuff like A8s but only after i've established myself at a passive table. if you raise, make it $4 preflop. $2.5 is a minraise imo.
as played i'd 3bet push turn

hand2 is a tough spot unless you think its AK you are ahead. with AQ, if you think you are ahead of a lag on the button reraise preflop. i'd probably call here since you're getting 3-1 it isnt AK.

oh and RELOAD PREFLOP

Re: NL Day 2
 

Did I miss something in hand 1?
What happened with the set of 8's?

Re: NL Day 2
 

H1: this is a bit nasty but you have to push and hope he has an 8 with a worse kicker. You definitely have some outs against anything.

H2: As a rule make a potsize reraise preflop. It doesn't matter much whether you're ahead here btw, as if the hand goes to showdown you won't be, but a cr is fine. This is really awkward. He could have Ax[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 54, 33, or be bluffing the ace with 2 random spades because he puts you on a pp. Checking the turn isn't a bad idea fwiw. Tough to lay this down.

Keep a full stack, don't let it drop to $80.

Re: NL Day 2
 

[ QUOTE ]

H2: As a rule make a potsize reraise preflop. It doesn't matter much whether you're ahead here btw, as if the hand goes to showdown you won't be, but a cr is fine. This is really awkward. He could have Ax[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 54, 33, or be bluffing the ace with 2 random spades because he puts you on a pp. Checking the turn isn't a bad idea fwiw. Tough to lay this down.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you saying that calling preflop and c/r the flop is an ok alternative to reraising but that generally I should be reraising? As for checking the turn, I did give that some thought. I thought I might be committed to showdown though with my stack size and that I might as well bet hoping to get value from some hands that might check behind. Perhaps I could have gotten more value from bluffs though?

[ QUOTE ]

Keep a full stack, don't let it drop to $80.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that was pretty dumb.

Glad to see I didn't mess these up as much as I thought.

Re: NL Day 2
 

I push hand 1 all day. He has worse trips very often and for the amount you have left, he is not folding it.

Re: NL Day 2
 

For Hand #1, it seems to me that villain is slowplaying either a set or an overpair, but I think you have the better hand most of the times here. YOu gotta call. For the second hand,I don't like to reraise with hands like AQo out of position. I would maybe float him on the flop and try to take the pot on the turn, but most of the time, i would just give up the hand and look for a better situation.

Re: NL Day 2
 

[ QUOTE ]

So are you saying that calling preflop and c/r the flop is an ok alternative to reraising but that generally I should be reraising?

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I mean that I would mix in some calls with AQ - maybe 20%. And if you happened to be on that flop with any two cards then a cr is OK so long as you don't overdo it by checkraising constantly.

Re: NL Day 2
 

hand 1 is auto push considering you dont have a full buy in. I think you beat a ton of hands here and if not you have outs to win.
hand 2 is spewing when you raise the flop. Because it is SCREAMING bluff. Once you hit the ace it gives him a chance to boost it. You're committed to a big pot once you hit the ace. I would say just call the the flop, check/call turn, check/call river.

Re: NL Day 2
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would maybe float him on the flop and try to take the pot on the turn, but most of the time, i would just give up the hand and look for a better situation.

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It isn't floating if you are OOP. You are describing a Stop and Go, which I really do not like in this situation because no worse hands are coming along.

Jake, Hand 1 looks fine as long as you got the money in the middle.

Hand 2, playing AQ OOP to a raise is very difficult. Reads are very important. I do not like to play large pots in this situation and usaully call pre-flop, but will occasionally take Jam's line as well. It's all about feel. Against a solid TAG I'd have no problem folding AQ.

Re: NL Day 2
 

Glad you're enjoying NL, Jake.

I'm just going to expand on what others have said.

Hand 1. What would you have done if the turn was a non-board-pairing brick, but the action were unchanged? That is,turn comes J, you bet, opponent check-raises. Your action? This is an important question because this happens waaay more often than what actually happened in the hand. And you need to get this right. Take it from an old limit guy. This is a hand that you could be suceptible to getting wrong becasue of your limit background.

Hand 2. Re-raise PF, but not becasue of the value of your hand. Sure you may be ahead of this LAG's range. But the real reason why you re-raise is becasue of you bad postflop position. Re-raising gives you the chance to end the hand PF and gives you a little more FE postflop if he calls anyway by overrepresenting your hand a little. The obvious downfall to re-raising is that you're building a pot OOP with a marginal 1-pair hand, but this is a pretty marginal spot anyway. You gotta do what you gotta do.

Re: NL Day 2
 

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($8.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $6</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $17</font>, Button calls.

On this board I figure I should be ahead often enough that a c/r will be profitable. Bad idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I think it was a bad idea, the dbitel rule of check-raising:

“By default, never C/R, only C/R if you have a very good reason to do so”

I really like this rule, and in the situation you described you don't have enough of a reason to C/R. A significant proportion of the time the villian will have an overpair and will always call. If you wanted to take a stab at the pot here you'd be better off leading the betting IMHO, as the risk is lower.

Re: NL Day 2
 

[ QUOTE ]
What would you have done if the turn was a non-board-pairing brick, but the action were unchanged? That is,turn comes J, you bet, opponent check-raises. Your action? This is an important question because this happens waaay more often than what actually happened in the hand. And you need to get this right. Take it from an old limit guy. This is a hand that you could be suceptible to getting wrong becasue of your limit background.

[/ QUOTE ]

as a limit player playing NL, i anxiously anticipate the answer and discussion pertaining to this question.

Re: NL Day 2
 

*Grunch*
Jake-
I used to play limit and I always thought you gave sound advice in the small stakes forum. I made the switch about 6 months ago and haven't looked back, I wish you luck.
In hand 2, I think you let your limit background get the best of you. Fold the flop and be done with it. If you folded the best of it, it is not all that big of a mistake, whereas you have set yourself up to make a huge mistake later in the hand by inflating the pot with UI overs. Pick better spots to get your money in. I mean, you hit a good card for your hand and you are still in a tight spot. This usually means you misplayed previous streets. And I would consider reraising pf, but it is not that big of a deal.

Re: NL Day 2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What would you have done if the turn was a non-board-pairing brick, but the action were unchanged? That is,turn comes J, you bet, opponent check-raises. Your action? This is an important question because this happens waaay more often than what actually happened in the hand. And you need to get this right. Take it from an old limit guy. This is a hand that you could be suceptible to getting wrong becasue of your limit background.

[/ QUOTE ]

as a limit player playing NL, i anxiously anticipate the answer and discussion pertaining to this question.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm from the same background too.

I would fold. Hope that's the correct answer!

Re: NL Day 2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What would you have done if the turn was a non-board-pairing brick, but the action were unchanged? That is,turn comes J, you bet, opponent check-raises. Your action? This is an important question because this happens waaay more often than what actually happened in the hand. And you need to get this right. Take it from an old limit guy. This is a hand that you could be suceptible to getting wrong becasue of your limit background.

[/ QUOTE ]

as a limit player playing NL, i anxiously anticipate the answer and discussion pertaining to this question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: NL Day 2
 

If your going to play A8s UTG, it's definiately best to raise. I'd fold because the position is bad. Even at 6-max, I like a little better starting cards than ace-rag (suited or not) because my position will usually stink after the flop.


[ QUOTE ]
Stack sizes:
Hero: $84
SB: $201.41

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I had been raising quite a bit and winning many pots with cbets on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that villain has the table covered + the fact that no one has been contesting your c-bets leads me to believe that villain is either running good, and/or playing solid cards. So, his call of your cb + c/r on the turn for a large amount looks more like a set that just filled up than an overpair trying to push you off of AK or AQ.

Unfortunately, villain's hand range may be wide enough and your stack size is small enough that you should probably ride your trip 8s into the ground on this one. Villain could have the big hands, 57s, 86s, 88, 66, and 44. But, he could also have 78s, 89s, 8Ts, another A8s, K8s, 99, TT, JJ, and QQ (higher pairs would probably have reraised preflop). So, I think pusing and expecting a call from any of the hands above is probably best. You still have a few outs if the board pairs.

Hand 2: Fold or re-raise preflop. Don't take a passive position in the hand out of position with a potentially dominated hand. Just calling the button raise with AQ from BB was a mistake, IMO.

Making a c/r over button's c/b is a symptom of FPS that is probably a leak in your game. Just c/f having missed the flop and move on. Now, on the other hand, had you reraised preflop representing a pair, then made a strong c/b, then villain would probably have to fold HIS missed over cards, even if they were AK or maybe even 88/77/etc.


The turn action is terrible for you. You're now oop playing TPWK vs the preflop raiser that is getting crazy when that A flops. I really think AQ is no good. AK or AA makes more sense given the action. I suppose villain MIGHT have AQ/AJ/AT or even As Js, buy I think you can fold and save some money.

I think this hand really shows the importance of having good position with a hand like AQ, and that if your going to play AQ from the BB, that you should take the lead in the betting preflop in order to set yourself up for making better decisions post flop.

Re: NL Day 2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($8.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $6</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $17</font>, Button calls.

On this board I figure I should be ahead often enough that a c/r will be profitable. Bad idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I think it was a bad idea, the dbitel rule of check-raising:

“By default, never C/R, only C/R if you have a very good reason to do so”

I really like this rule, and in the situation you described you don't have enough of a reason to C/R. A significant proportion of the time the villian will have an overpair and will always call. If you wanted to take a stab at the pot here you'd be better off leading the betting IMHO, as the risk is lower.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this 100%. However, now that you've gotten yourself into this situation you have only two options - raise all-in or fold. No other move is worth a nickel. Personally, I prefer the former:

Your c/r has indicated you have a piece of the flop. The A on the turn has now convinced him that he has you beat. I think a high percentage of the time he's either going to fold or call and showdown a worse A than yours. He may have AK or AA but the latter is highly unlikely (why would he not smooth call and try and bust you on the river?), and he may even have two pair here, but I think most of the time you've got the best hand.

But, you should not be in this situation. Re-raise PF or c/f the flop.

Re: NL Day 2
 

A bunch of thoughts:

1. You guys give really good advice. Everybody expands on what they are talking about, giving in-depth reasoning. I love this.

2. It's really cool to see guys from the old SS forum in here.

3. [ QUOTE ]
hand 2 is spewing when you raise the flop. Because it is SCREAMING bluff.

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I actually thought about this too at the time. From what I have seen so far though, people fold on the flop WAY too much without good hands or draws. I didn't expect him to call with any unpaired hands, though this conclusion could certainly be wrong (as results show).

4. [ QUOTE ]
What would you have done if the turn was a non-board-pairing brick, but the action were unchanged? That is,turn comes J, you bet, opponent check-raises. Your action? This is an important question because this happens waaay more often than what actually happened in the hand. And you need to get this right. Take it from an old limit guy. This is a hand that you could be suceptible to getting wrong becasue of your limit background.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I know I would fold. At that point I think the reverse implied odds would kill me right?

5. [ QUOTE ]
If you wanted to take a stab at the pot here you'd be better off leading the betting IMHO, as the risk is lower.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought c/r would be better since (a) I get more value when I take the pot down and (b) I thought a c/r would do a better job of getting him to fold unpaired hands. Is this untrue?

Results:
<font color="white">
Hand 1: I pushed. Villain called with a flopped straight.

Hand 2: I called the all-in. Villain had AK. FWIW, he took almost all of his clock to call on the flop.
</font>

Re: NL Day 2
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought c/r would be better since (a) I get more value when I take the pot down and (b) I thought a c/r would do a better job of getting him to fold unpaired hands. Is this untrue?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's true sometimes. In my experience playing NL online, there is a lot of check raising of continuation bets, and I tend to look them up once in a while because a lot of players are watching tournaments and making the c/r just because they think you missed with your c-bet. This is incorrect thinking for a cash game, IMO, especially if you do it all the time.

Like the earlier poster said - c/r when you have a reason. Otherwise it's a recipe for getting nailed.

Re: NL Day 2
 

Oops, forgot to follow up here. I got numerous PMs about this post.

Ok, let's look at my hypothetical Hand 1: (quoted passages are from OP)

[ QUOTE ]
Opponent is still relatively unknown at this point but seems on the loose side.

[/ QUOTE ]

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $84
CO: $141.96
Button: $107.75
SB: $201.41
BB: $110.85

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($8.5, 3 players)

SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $6</font>, CO folds, SB calls.

[ QUOTE ]
Could be an 8, maybe a straight draw, 2 pair, a set... what else goes here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($20.5, 2 players)

SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $13</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $41</font>, Hero ... ?

My response is to fold. Unless the opponent is a floater or especially aggressive (most aren't) this is often a strong hand. It's less likely now to still be a draw, although it is possible that it is a marginal hand that was made on the flop that just picked up a draw.

It's also possible that this was a marginal flopped hand that also flopped a redraw; something like 65. In which case you have the best hand, but you also have reverse implied odds. When you are behind you'll lose the most, but when you are ahead you'll win the least.

So this is a case where I fold knowing full well that I have the best hand at least some portion of the time. Another way to look at this is big-pot vs. small-pot. You have a small-pot hand, but the opponent is trying to build a big-pot. Don't oblige.

Sometimes you have a redraw &amp; implied odds to continue, but normally this is a fold.