Borg 80 Hand
 

Borgata 80-160. Folded to me in the cutoff and I open with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. The button, a solid regular, three bets. Both blinds fold and I call. The flop comes 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. What's my plan for this hand and why?

P.S. I understand preflop is marginal (though one of the blinds and the button are tightish). But that's not the point of the thread...I'm interested in how you'd generally play this hand postflop, as played.

Thanks,
Jeff

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

standard line: berserker attack c/r-4 bet-6 bet on the flop.

possibly better line: check-call flop, bet-3 bet turn.

worst line that will be favored by most on here: check-call, check-call, check-fold.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

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possibly better line: check-call flop, bet-3 bet turn.


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Won't this line lead to him calling down with AK and only raising a hand he can't fold to a three bet (like KK or AA)? Something like JJ might suspect I'm making a weird slowplay and not raise a turn bet and even if this type of hand does raise, that doesn't mean he's folding to a three bet often. So say, you bet-raise the turn and he calls. You've priced yourself into making a hopeless bluff on the end, no?

Jeff

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

I would personnaly c/r the flop a good percentage of the time as I would with any pair. There is no flush draw and your hand is so marginal that he might never think you are on such a draw and should give you credit for at least a pair.

If he is a showdown monkey (calling down with any Ace on a board like this one), I'd check fold the river instead of keeping bluffing, otherwise I'll bet a good amount of the time.

If he 3 bets the flop, I'll donk anything but A-K on the turn. Basically I'd play this draw the same way as I would play A7 or 66 or a monster like 77 for instance.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

n/m

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

you mentioned AK, KK, AA and JJ. if those are the sort of hands he has to have, and not a lot else (QT, etc) then it doesnt matter much what you do, youre pretty much screwed unless you hit your hand; cc, cc, cf, next thread.

if he can have a significantly wider range then we have something we can talk about a bit.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

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donk turn A

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I really hate donking a turned Ace here because an Ace will be in most of his hands he is 3 betting the hero, second pair might look you up (TT+), so you will have to bluff the river again to see him fold only a very small portion of the time... I think donking a turned A isn't very good...

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

The idea of any plays on this board aren't to get a pair to fold. That won't happen. It's to get KQ-KT and JT style hands to fold.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
standard line: berserker attack c/r-4 bet-6 bet on the flop.

possibly better line: check-call flop, bet-3 bet turn.

worst line that will be favored by most on here: check-call, check-call, check-fold.

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What are you representing?

What does he think you have?


In my opinion: it's obvious taht the flop missed both of you, the sole exception being A7 or A5

So him, knowing this, will not fold anything decent. Since he's a solid player, he only has something decent. So what's your turn check-raise going to accomplish? Most likely a calldown, or am I off?

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

If you want to see him fold something like KT and such just c/r that flop and bet any turn beside A-K since most of his holdings will have one of these... He won't be able to call down with K high if he perceive you as decent. A lot of small pocket pair would play the flop this way against a button 3 bettor and since the board isn't drawy at all, you should get some credit.

When someone donks into me on the turn like that and I have a good K or A high and no reads on him, it's so suspicious that I definitively want to see a river and sometimes a showdown just to know what kind of move he can pull...

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

I think one other advantage of checkraising the flop is that if he's planning the call and raise the turn line with a big pair then you get three large bets out of him if you turn the straight. If you checkraise the turn, he will just call with the same hand.

What about checkraising the flop and then bet-three betting the turn as long as it isn't an ace? This may cause him to lay down something like QQ or JJ. OTOH, something like JJ or 10-10 or 99 is more likely to three bet the flop than raise the turn. But it's a blind steal spot so who knows - I think he is capable of laying down a smaller pocket pair if he was planning to raise the turn just to get to showdown for two bets on one street and not for value. Not sure how likely this scenario is though.

I'm tired so hopefully that made some semblance of sense.

Jeff

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

"the sole exception being A7 or A5"

what about a pocket pair small enough to not cap?

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

I think it really depends on how often this guy gets to showdown Jeff. My usual plan of action would be to CR the flop and lead turn, but if he is always calling down w ace high here than that doesnt do any good and I would prob just c/c c/c c/f.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

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I think one other advantage of checkraising the flop is that if he's planning the call and raise the turn line with a big pair then you get three large bets out of him if you turn the straight.

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this doesnt make sense to me. you wont have the straight 80% of the time on the turn, so how is it an advantage that he raises?

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If you checkraise the turn, he will just call with the same hand.

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why not bet it out then?

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

I'm pretty sure that the answer is however you normally play a middle pair or a set, especially if you play those similarly. Your opponent probably doesn't include your actual hand in his range for you. He'll make some big mistakes when you hit, which is another reason to bluff.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

I also like Mike's flop berserker play and think its fairly standard. Bet 3 betting the turn is a good idea too. Basically your hand and preflop action and this flop is license to spew since you will usually have a set here.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

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Bet 3 betting the turn is a good idea too.

-DeathDonkey

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What if that negates any possibility of a river checkraise?

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

You mean unimproved Josh?

-DeathDonkey

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

I think the best ways to get a fold out of him are donk/3 betting the flop and leading the turn or check/calling flop and checkraising the turn. Against showdown monkeys I don't think there is anythign worth with check/call, check/call,check/fold.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

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This may cause him to lay down something like QQ or JJ

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Jeff
How often do you lay down JJ or QQ on 8 high board HU? How often do you do that against a player with your image? Your best hope is to get him to lay down AK-AQ and not spew way too many chips in the process. CR the flop and lead the turn.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

with what hands do you cap when 3 bet by a tightish button?

what does he think of your pre/postflop play?

preflop i dont think is a mistake.

since you called, my standard line is to c'r and possibly c'r again on turn if 3bet (depending on my read of him - i.e. will he 3 bet Ahigh in this spot like some would- and the turn card) i dont often 4 bet in this spot when my c'r is 3bet but it is defiantely a valid line b/c that narrows your holdings in his mind far more than a c'r. the downside is that if he has AK, it boats the pot and he'll likely peel the turn and force you to bet an unimproved river (which wont be the correct play some of the time) which now, due to pot size, he may just look you up (rarely though i admit).

what is more interesting though is if you c'r and he just calls.

what is your plan for the turn? bet-call? bet-3bet (any hand he waits to the turn to raise is not likely folding to a 3 bet)? check-call?

the question of betting that turn depends on whether you think he feels 6 outs are good. if you have convinced him they are not (unlikely given the little action) he is correct to see the river.

so this hand can easily turn into a 3/4 barrell hand. depending on how the action goes though, it's one of those rare hands where it is definately correct to put in a good deal of action b/c either you have a small pair/set or a crazy bluff or exactly 86...and from his perspective, that doesn't look good for unimproved overcards (Even AK) with a river bet.

basically, id prepare to take this hand away without a showdown given the very favorable flop and smallish range he can put you on when you play back hard.

Barron

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

jeff,

i checkraise and lead this hand. the only other line that i think is as good is checkcall, then checkraise any turn. both of these lines will induce turn folds quite a bit, with the second one to a greater extent. it also only costs you one extra small bet.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

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jeff,

i checkraise and lead this hand. the only other line that i think is as good is checkcall, then checkraise any turn. both of these lines will induce turn folds quite a bit, with the second one to a greater extent. it also only costs you one extra small bet.

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Don't you think the first line is too "standard" now to induce folds from a lot of hands?

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

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jeff,

i checkraise and lead this hand. the only other line that i think is as good is checkcall, then checkraise any turn. both of these lines will induce turn folds quite a bit, with the second one to a greater extent. it also only costs you one extra small bet.

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Don't you think the first line is too "standard" now to induce folds from a lot of hands?

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yes, i do. if we want to fold out ace high we need to raise the turn, but i play my sets, 2pr, overpair hands the same way most of the time so why vary it with my draws?

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

The reason you play your sets/2 pr that way is because you get paid off by AK type hands who can't put you on a big hand, it's not really good for inducing folds.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

Find me someone who fold AK on a let's say 7 5 2 2 rainbow when you c/r the turn online ? I know that live is an other story but still I would think that a lot of them would still call down and look you up...

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

i dont like leading on the turn. to me that seems like a very vulnerable spot to be raised and now you've gotta hit your hand. he could have a very wide range of hands from the button, but still even if you dont make your hand on the turn and fire out, you still have 8 high, and he has shown marginal aggression thus far. i think a flop c/r is good and then a turn check/fold if you dont hit and he bets into you.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

what do you think of c/r the flop, call a 3rd and then c/r the turn representing a set? then if he calls lead out the river no matter.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

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Find me someone who fold AK on a let's say 7 5 2 2 rainbow when you c/r the turn online ? I know that live is an other story but still I would think that a lot of them would still call down and look you up...

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We are hoping he has A9 or KJ, not AK.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

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what do you think of c/r the flop, call a 3rd and then c/r the turn representing a set? then if he calls lead out the river no matter.

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I find it hard to believe that investing this much into a bluff is as profitable as simply trying to check/call and make a straight or a pair.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

i like all that except giving up on the river after he calls the turn is better.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

If I felt like his range was decently wide enough I would check/call the flop and lead the turn (while keeping open the option of a turn-3 depending on the card). I think that is how I would end up playing something like 55-88 in this spot so I might as well do it here too.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

I think what matters here is how likely he is to give us a free card if we check/call flop. If he's the type to check behind AQ/AK there i like check/call flop check turn. If he's the type that bets again i like check/call flop check/raise turn.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

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I think what matters here is how likely he is to give us a free card if we check/call flop. If he's the type to check behind AQ/AK there i like check/call flop check turn. If he's the type that bets again i like check/call flop check/raise turn.

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So depending on how he plays, you either check the turn, or check raise the turn? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

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I think what matters here is how likely he is to give us a free card if we check/call flop. If he's the type to check behind AQ/AK there i like check/call flop check turn. If he's the type that bets again i like check/call flop check/raise turn.

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So depending on how he plays, you either check the turn, or check raise the turn? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Sorry, I meant check/call the turn in the first one.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

as others assume the guy isn't a showdown monkey:

If we want to give him a chance to fold I think bet-3bet is the best flop line. By the way he reacts to us on the flop we should decide if he has a QQ/JJ or AK. If he has the former then checkraise the turn, if he has the latter then bet. Checkraising the turn after bet3betting the flop gets a lot of folds from a lot of hands but him checking behind is a disaster. If he checks behind we can only win the pot when we improve.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

I like checkraising the flop with the intention of 4 betting a reraise (and leading out on each street). A lot of players will reraise the flop with just overcards for either a free card or cheap showdown, but they usually wait until the turn to raise with overpairs. It gives you a chance to show aggression twice inexpensively and while your hand is still good (as opposed to donk/3 betting a missed turn).

Also, just check calling down isn't such a bad play. There are players that will call down a ragged board with virtually every hand they would be 3 betting with.

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

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I think what matters here is how likely he is to give us a free card if we check/call flop. If he's the type to check behind AQ/AK there i like check/call flop check turn. If he's the type that bets again i like check/call flop check/raise turn.

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how often (and against what type of opponents, statwise) do you bet riv if you miss?

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

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as others assume the guy isn't a showdown monkey:

If we want to give him a chance to fold I think bet-3bet is the best flop line. By the way he reacts to us on the flop we should decide if he has a QQ/JJ or AK. If he has the former then checkraise the turn, if he has the latter then bet. Checkraising the turn after bet3betting the flop gets a lot of folds from a lot of hands but him checking behind is a disaster. If he checks behind we can only win the pot when we improve.

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how will you determine his hand from the flop action?

Re: Borg 80 Hand
 

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as others assume the guy isn't a showdown monkey:

If we want to give him a chance to fold I think bet-3bet is the best flop line. By the way he reacts to us on the flop we should decide if he has a QQ/JJ or AK. If he has the former then checkraise the turn, if he has the latter then bet. Checkraising the turn after bet3betting the flop gets a lot of folds from a lot of hands but him checking behind is a disaster. If he checks behind we can only win the pot when we improve.

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You want to checkraise the turn if he has QQ or JJ? Or did I misunderstand you?

A turn c/r seems nice if he is on the weaker part of his range, though.

If he checks behind on the turn we gain from not having to pay to see the river, which should make up for the lost bluffing opportunity. So I dont see this as a problem.