The Zoo...
 

the thread in question

i have a complaint. i went to this thread and read the first few responses and it was apparent that grannymae and mssunshine were going to flame anyone who disagreed with them. this being the case, i thought it best to point out some of their blatant(and boy do i mean blatant) hypocrisies. during the span of many people pointing out the problem with their statements, granny and mssunshine at some point decided that forum rules dont apply to them and that swearing and trolling anyone who posted an opinion differing from theres was the best way to go about things.

dr_savage points out 8 consecutive flames made by the grannymae/mssunshine coalition which are just so funny in their complete lack of thought and logic that i dont know where to begin. this was pointed out to all moderators present and i even had a pm discussion with a moderator who told me that trolling and flaming from these posters was okay for two reasons:

a) "its the zoo"-which i suppose means that its "wild" and people can do what they please. okay, that kind of makes a wee bit of sense, but the fact that people talk about how OOT is going to be shut down for lack of content and then this is allowed by moderators just blows my mind.
b) "these are well respected long time posters"-well, thats a neat opinion, however, i would be shocked if more than 30% of posters agreed with this. looking at granny's posts, the vast majority are just complete trolls. if anyone thinks that the posts in this thread were the least bit reasonable i would invite them to explain why. but i am shocked beyond all belief that the blatent flames have been allowed. its insane enough that these users are still allowed to post at all, the fact that theyre given a free pass to do whatever they want because theyre friends with a moderator is just silly.

done.

rj

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]

a) "its the zoo"-which i suppose means that its "wild" and people can do what they please.

[/ QUOTE ]

awesome, im gunna take my level of hate and assholness up in there a notch or two. Glad to know Im allowed to do this.

[ QUOTE ]
b) "these are well respected long time posters"

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, thats only half correct. Ill let you figure out which half

Re: The Zoo...
 

Granniemae is the worst poster on 2+2. All he does is troll. I have never seen a good post with helpfull content from him. I think the deal with him is that he had a ton of post for a long time before alot of quality poster had many posts and people just gave him status because of this quantity.

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
b) "these are well respected long time posters"

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, thats only half correct. Ill let you figure out which half

[/ QUOTE ]

posters? they do post i suppose...

rj

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
a) "its the zoo"-which i suppose means that its "wild" and people can do what they please.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may suppose this.

However, it's not what I said in my pm to you; and I don't think it's a fair interpretation of what I said.

Re: The Zoo...
 

Way to paint the picture with rose colored glasses.

MSS made one post before you made your first reply, so how was it obvious that "grannymae and mssunshine were going to flame anyone who disagreed with them"

[ QUOTE ]
do you know what "minion" means? have you seen the way this thread has gone in terms of it being a turn on sponger in favor of you fest? good times.

rj

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
the best part is that in response to me pointing out that you have no idea what a word youre frequently using means, you fail to acknowledge that, continue using the word in a manner that is as hypocritical as humanly possible and then make an ass out of yourself when you seem to think youve proven some point, whereas people really just look and say "wow, what a pathetic human being granny must be"...and then...

dids points out that you can only communicate through mindless insults, you go for a mindless insult. youre seriously becoming a parody of yourself and i for one am enjoying it.

i am absouletely shocked that we;ve had this whole "hey, everyone should be nicer to each other" yet granny acts like a complete douchebag to anyone who ever disagrees with him and no one cares. you are honestly the worst poster on this board without there being a close second.

gl

rj

ps. would you consider getting a bunch of people to stake a player that has no chance of making the money in a 10k major tournament stealing? because you pretty much did there

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoever posted that has "forum rules dont apply to them and that swearing and trolling anyone who posted an opinion differing from theres was the best way to go about things."

[ QUOTE ]

you never answered my question as to whether someone who has 0% ability to make the money in the wsop asking to get staked is stealing. imo, it is, since youre an absolute retard, you have >5% equity to make the money in a 10k tournament. id say it approaches 0. this being the case, were you stealing from your backers when you knew you were too stupid to cash but took their backing money anyways?

rj

[/ QUOTE ]


It is nice to know that you are following guidelines too and not just pointing out others who don't.

Re: The Zoo...
 

okay, so after ive been flamed 8+ times its not reasonable for me to respond with one? is that the part you object to most? i imagine that with this as the case you would still not even consider objecting to what granny and mssunshine wrote. the fact that you would purport yourself to be a neutral party in this situation goes well beyond funny as youve flamed me too in the past. i guess the group sticks together till the end?

rj

your post is like condeming the guy who got punched in the face 8 times because he fought back after the 8th time. lol at your attempt at a reasonable, unbiased view!

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a) "its the zoo"-which i suppose means that its "wild" and people can do what they please.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may suppose this.

However, it's not what I said in my pm to you; and I don't think it's a fair interpretation of what I said.

[/ QUOTE ]

"The Internet Gambling Forum is called the Zoo because of ill-mannered and argumentative threads. This particular one is no better and no worse than the threads that earned it its nickname."

that is exactly what you wrote. i am baffled as to how this is different from what you said. me supposing that users could do whatever they want was in response to you allowing granny and mssunshine to do what they want, not based on any statement you made.

rj

Re: The Zoo...
 

RJ,

I read the thread in question and the one thing I was struck by was that while you are right about the nature of GM's and MS's posts towards you, you willing and repeatedly engaged in the debate/agruement. If you were truly bothered by this why not just stop posting in the thread? It seems to me that if you are going to continue to reply and fire back and you are aware of what the nature and tone of their replies will be then you really can't complain much.

If you don't want to engage in these types of disputes then don't engage in them.

Re: The Zoo...
 

Just like in a regular community, your actions in an online forum don't happen in a vacuum. It's no accident that posts by the people you criticize are received differently than yours. They're received differently than mine as well, but in your case it's more pronounced due to deliberate actions on your part in the past.

In this particular case, someone attacked a poster that has built up a ton of good will over years of active participation, and you decided to pile on. What resulted was predictable and completely avoidable, and the person that should have predicted and avoided it was you, not site management.

Martin

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]

If you don't want to engage in these types of disputes then don't engage in them.

[/ QUOTE ]

its been pointed out to me that i have a problem with doing this and im working on stopping. thanks.

rj

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
i even had a pm discussion with a moderator who told me that trolling and flaming from these posters was okay for two reasons:


[/ QUOTE ]


don't be cryptic. it was probably your friend dids, who admitted to being friend's with you and kyle in the mod forum. this, of course, makes his comments in that thread egregious in bias.


regarding this whine post, i don't suppose you have ulterior motives for not liking granny, do you??

<font color="red">PITTM
enthusiast


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 251

i disagree completely...
05/18/04 09:16 PM
Edit Reply Quote

when i first started playing online, my roommate and i would sit next to each other and play at the same table on our laptops. Pacific poker even lets duplicate ip's play. for other sites we would just use dsl/aol and it was VERY effective. i can imagine that since everyone is thinking about it, many are probably doing it.

rj


PITTM
enthusiast


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 251

Re: even better...
06/21/04 08:31 PM
Edit Reply Quote

i am fully willing to be completely open about this issue since it is a thing of the past. I cheated at the following sites:
-Pacific Poker
-Pokerroom.com
-Paradisepoker.com

i no longer have accounts at any of the above sites and i currently play at partypoker.com/pokerstars.com in a completely ethical manner. If there are more questions, feel free to ask.

rj
</font>


you are a leopard.

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
"The Internet Gambling Forum is called the Zoo because of ill-mannered and argumentative threads. This particular one is no better and no worse than the threads that earned it its nickname."


[/ QUOTE ]

is this from a PRIVATE message?

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"The Internet Gambling Forum is called the Zoo because of ill-mannered and argumentative threads. This particular one is no better and no worse than the threads that earned it its nickname."


[/ QUOTE ]

is this from a PRIVATE message?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, both were from mike haven. who gave me permission to reuse them.

rj

Re: The Zoo...
 

For some strange reason I guessed you might quote all or part of my Private Message to you in public without my permission so I kept a copy of it.

Here it is in full, so that if there are any interested readers they will be able to see your unauthorised quote in context:

"I don't think MS Sunshine and GrannyMae post much if anything outside the Zoo.

The Internet Gambling Forum is called the Zoo because of ill-mannered and argumentative threads. This particular one is no better and no worse than the threads that earned it its nickname.

Both parties have been major contributors to the success of Twoplustwo, long before the IGF became known as the Zoo, and it is far beyond my powers to make massive decisions as to banning such posters unless they became total nuisances and trolls, (which they are not, imo).

Mat Sklansky is the paid Administrator of the Forums, and he oversees the forums and the volunteer moderators. If you think something is unacceptable, or that forum moderators are not acting as they should, you should pm him and put your case to him.

I give you my permission to copy this pm to him if you wish, as I believe that the Boyd thread that has prompted you to write to me is acceptable to date. (I have had to delete some words and phrases, but the various individual parties involving themselves in the thread appear to me to be able to handle their opposite sides of the ongoing arguments, albeit that some of the name-calling might not be the norm if this debate was occurring in real life.)

Cheers.

M."

[censored] has picked up on the sentiments of my last paragraph. I would guess that he might also support my offer to you to change your Title to "Forum Virus". Although you have declined this to date, the offer stands.

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i even had a pm discussion with a moderator who told me that trolling and flaming from these posters was okay for two reasons:


[/ QUOTE ]


don't be cryptic. it was probably your friend dids, who admitted to being friend's with you and kyle in the mod forum. this, of course, makes his comments in that thread egregious in bias.


regarding this whine post, i don't suppose you have ulterior motives for not liking granny, do you??

<font color="red">PITTM
enthusiast


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 251

i disagree completely...
05/18/04 09:16 PM
Edit Reply Quote

when i first started playing online, my roommate and i would sit next to each other and play at the same table on our laptops. Pacific poker even lets duplicate ip's play. for other sites we would just use dsl/aol and it was VERY effective. i can imagine that since everyone is thinking about it, many are probably doing it.

rj


PITTM
enthusiast


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 251

Re: even better...
06/21/04 08:31 PM
Edit Reply Quote

i am fully willing to be completely open about this issue since it is a thing of the past. I cheated at the following sites:
-Pacific Poker
-Pokerroom.com
-Paradisepoker.com

i no longer have accounts at any of the above sites and i currently play at partypoker.com/pokerstars.com in a completely ethical manner. If there are more questions, feel free to ask.

rj
</font>


you are a leopard.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually, over 2 years ago you said i would never change and i have. everytime i see you post i realize that there is this part of our society that actually thinks like you(OMG PEOPLE NEVER CHANGE! DEVELOPMENT DOESNT OCCUR AS HUMANS GROW!) and feel sick. im glad that in the last 2 years youve continued to be a stubborn, crotchety jerk while i feel like ive grown leaps and bounds. everytime you post the mistake i made it exposes a monster character flaw that you have. im happy with the tradeoff.

rj

Re: The Zoo...
 

i misread the last paragraph as you saying i could post it. im sorry.

although i dont know how the part i posted could seem the least bit problematic. you were defining your own forum. if thats how youre allowing users to post just say it, it doesnt need to be hidden in private.

rj

Re: The Zoo...
 

FWIW what Granny just did in this thread is exactly what I find so distasteful about what he did in the thread to which RJ linked.

It's just a transparent attempt to attack the messenger and derail the thread. It's 100% trolling and totally out of line.

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
For some strange reason I guessed you might quote all or part of my Private Message to you in public without my permission so I kept a copy of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, that would be ABOUT as unprofessional as say...sending someone flame pm;s when youre a moderator of a buisness's message board. i cant think of any specific examples in this situation however...

rj

Re: The Zoo...
 

I just don't like how if you disagree with any of GrannyMae's comments, his first reaction is to say "you're a cheater too."

do people really argue like this in real life? or only on the internet where they have no worries about getting punched in the face?

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]

don't be cryptic. it was probably your friend dids, who admitted to being friend's with you and kyle in the mod forum.


[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know this? Was someone sharing privileged mod forum information? Until there is a mod forum discussion forum discussion forum that isn't supposed to happen.

edit:
Actually MH might have gotten permission from dids to say something like that. I haven't read the zoo thread in a day or two.

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

don't be cryptic. it was probably your friend dids, who admitted to being friend's with you and kyle in the mod forum.


[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know this? Was someone sharing privileged mod forum information? Until there is a mod forum discussion forum discussion forum that isn't supposed to happen.

edit:
Actually MH might have gotten permission from dids to say something like that. I haven't read the zoo thread in a day or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

ive heard that my user notes contain "friends with dids". if this is true i cant laugh enough at 2p2.

rj

Re: The Zoo...
 

I for one dream of the day that some of the pure gold that I've posted in the mod forum in the past is made public for all to appreciate.

I feel like a great artist who has had his worked locked away in a dark basement.

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I for one dream of the day that some of the pure gold that I've posted in the mod forum in the past is made public for all to appreciate.

I feel like a great artist who has had his worked locked away in a dark basement.

[/ QUOTE ]

Until then you know there are a few super posters that get to enjoy them!

Re: The Zoo...
 

Stabn, you must be at work...

Re: The Zoo...
 

RJ,

Give it up, dude. I wouldn't get so up-in-arms about the fact that GM receives more leeway in the Zoo. Like others have pointed out:

1) It's called The Zoo.
2) Long time posters can get away with more than newbies.

If this was OOT we were talking about, would you still feel the same way? Because I can reel off a list of OOT trolls that are even worse than GM in that thread. The difference is that you're not complaining about those trolls because they're not flaming you.

Re: The Zoo...
 

I just added a new usernote for you.

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Stabn, you must be at work...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are assuming that I am not on IRC on the computer i am currently posting from you would be correct.

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]

If this was OOT we were talking about, would you still feel the same way? Because I can reel off a list of OOT trolls that are even worse than GM in that thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

go ahead. i guarantee your list would be INCREDIBLY short.

rj

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If this was OOT we were talking about, would you still feel the same way? Because I can reel off a list of OOT trolls that are even worse than GM in that thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

go ahead. i guarantee your list would be INCREDIBLY short.

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably not as incredibly short as the voluminous list of two users you've posted about in this thread. And it was more of a rhetorical offer to list the OOT trolls, btw.

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just added a new usernote for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: The Zoo...
 

oh, well my point was that there arent people in oot who troll as bad as granny does. if they had, [censored] would have banned them, which imo is what makes [censored] a good mod and most other mods pretty damn subpar.

rj

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Granniemae is the worst poster on 2+2. All he does is troll. I have never seen a good post with helpfull content from him. I think the deal with him is that he had a ton of post for a long time before alot of quality poster had many posts and people just gave him status because of this quantity.

[/ QUOTE ]

....you are entitled to your opinion, but also be advised that it is clearly subjective on your part and that others may hold a different opinion.

Anyone who judges a poster by number of posts instead of content of same is a simpleton, and has much to learn about life.

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
most other mods pretty damn subpar.



[/ QUOTE ]

Does this include your friend Dids? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
most other mods pretty damn subpar.



[/ QUOTE ]

Does this include your friend Dids? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

i honestly cant tell if you think youre funny or not. its like watching madtv.

rj

Re: The Zoo...
 

I used an emoticom. What more can I do? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If this was OOT we were talking about, would you still feel the same way? Because I can reel off a list of OOT trolls that are even worse than GM in that thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

go ahead. i guarantee your list would be INCREDIBLY short.

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably not as incredibly short as the voluminous list of two users you've posted about in this thread. And it was more of a rhetorical offer to list the OOT trolls, btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah but worst case in OOT we could just hold an OOT survivor and granny would be gone in short order

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
oh, well my point was that there arent people in oot who troll as bad as granny does. if they had, [censored] would have banned them, which imo is what makes [censored] a good mod and most other mods pretty damn subpar.

[/ QUOTE ]
[censored] is definitely not afraid to drop the hammer on users with lots of posts and lots of history, but for some reason, some seem to slip through the cracks. That being said, OOT is probably the forum most likely to attract trolls and trollish behavior.

Re: The Zoo...
 

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW what Granny just did in this thread is exactly what I find so distasteful about what he did in the thread to which RJ linked.

It's just a transparent attempt to attack the messenger and derail the thread. It's 100% trolling and totally out of line.

[/ QUOTE ]

would you be digusted and offended if he were NOT your friend? what gemane content could you provide given the absense of sticking up for your buddy?

Re: The Zoo...
 

All,

I've posted it a couple times in the past when appropriate: Granny is a horrible, horrible troll, and I can't believe anyone thinks otherwise.