SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

Part of my style that I feel is different to most is that early on when the blinds are small I like to see alot of flops with suited connectors, sometimes in MP, but usually in LP. I believe this is different to alot of people's strategy of not playing these hands at all and only playing big pairs and AK early on.

Do you think my strategy of playing these hands will be profitable in the long run (obviously i knnow i dont want to go broke with top pair with a sutied connector, im looking to hit straights or flushes).. which sort of brings me onto my next point.

IF you do flop top pair with this sort of hand, would you bet into a few players to atleast see whee you are, or do you believe this is a waste of chips since if you get played back at you are pretty much folding, and the amount of times you get played back at when betting top pair with a suited connector doesn't justify the amount of times you win a small pot with it only, and therefore ONLY play these hands for straights/flushes.

If you are ONLY playing suited connectors in LP for straights/flushes, when is it "correct" to chase your draw. I like to play my draws aggressively and if in position usuallly raise to try and get a free card. Do you believe early in the tournament it is never worth wasting chips on going for a draw since there are better times to gamble? or is it correct to chase if you are getting odds to do so?

I agree with the fact that later in the tornament near bubble time it is too risky to risk your whole tournament on a draw especially if you have e nough chips to survive to the money, but is it worth it early on, lets say if there are 2 allins on the flop infront of you and you are getting 2-1 + dead money on the nut flush draw...to gamble, try and triple up and be in a better position to win the tournament rather than making it harder to survive later on as a result of being shortstacked?

Any opinions appreciated.

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

The problem is that for most people, an extremely tight approach to the early game will be more profitable than anything a more loose-aggressive approach could bring. Very tight-aggressive dominates the early game for almost everything but high stakes, and even there it is most commonly used by the winning players.

There are various reasons for this:

- Survival is worth a ton in low stakes (just staying alive will earn you a lot of money)
- A double up in the early stages isn't nearly worth as much at a low stakes buyin as it is at a high stakes buyin
- It is very hard to maneouver post-flop because you're playing so many unknown players every time you sit down.

I'm not going to answer any of your questions because the style you seek to play requires a lot of experience and is very hard to play for a beginner. Hell, it's extremely hard to play even for anyone that doesn't have exceptional reading ability, recognizes situations intuitively, and so on.

You're basically asking people 'Hey, can you guys give me 2 years worth of post-flop play experience?' which is quite impossible.

It would be most wise for you to give up your style entirely and just go with what most people on these forums are doing, since you probably do not have the strategic knowledge to extract the most out of your big hands and lose the least when you're behind.

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

Well i like to think I do have alot of strategies in my arsenal to help me lose the minimum when behind and extract the most when winning. And I have been playing cash games consistently and profitably for a long time using a loose agressive style, depending on the table passivity, and find it is a style i play well.

And i wasn't actually asking for post-flop experience, I was asking if people tend to play these hands at ALL, in ANy POSITION...was just curious. But by your "what most people on these forums are doing" , I am assuming that you think most people do not play suited connectors in LP early in sngs.

Was still wondering about my other question though if you are faced with a decision of chasing a flush draw early with odds+implied odds, should you take the opportunity? Is it ever -EV to do so? I understand how it could be later on, but could it be -EV to chase with good odds early aswell?

Maybe you could also clarify what the majority of "other people" in this forum do, maybe point to a strategy article on another site or one written on this site?. .based for the pokerstars structure that is, not for the old party structure or anything which is completely different in my opinion with 800 chips and 10 hand blind levels or whatever it was.

PS. How could you say you "probably do not have the stategkic knowledge to extract the most out of your big hands and lose the least when you're behind".. Isn't that bit of an assumption? On what is this assumption based on if you wouldn't mind me asking?

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

This will help u:
the shadow
FAQ

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

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PS. How could you say you "probably do not have the stategkic knowledge to extract the most out of your big hands and lose the least when you're behind".. Isn't that bit of an assumption? On what is this assumption based on if you wouldn't mind me asking?

[/ QUOTE ]Probably he figures if you knew how to extract the most and lose the least then you wouldn't be asking this question in the first place.

My opinion from reading these forums for a while is that the tight early approach to SNG is not meant to maximize profit in individual SNGs, but rather to maximize profits while multi-tabling SNGs. Most people cannot handle lots of post-flop play while they are playing 4-12 tables. But, they can handle the tight-followed-by-pushbot approach over multiple tables because there is a lot less decision making required. And, this approach played reasonably well is good enough to turn a profit. Also, the potential profits are greater from playing multiple SNGs less than optimally than from playing a single SNG optimally.

In short: if you had to play one SNG at a time, the tight-early-pushbot-later approach would not be best (if you can play well post-flop). But, as you add tables playing well post-flop becomes more difficult because of the time factor.

As far as the pot odds stuff goes, just figure out what your tournament equity would be from calling and from folding. You should be able to make general rules from this to handle different situations at the table.

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

I'm sure a lot of us will see a flop with JTs on the button if there are 4 limpers in front of us. However, I don't think you'll see many people open-raising or open-limping 76s from the CO or stuff like that.

Regarding chasing the flush draw; the main point you are missing here is that cEV != $EV. What this means is that how much chips you have does not actually represent how much money you will make. Therefore, surviving might be worth more than getting a double-up.

Another thing is that you have a lot less fold equity. In cash games, TPTK or overpairs can be folded on the flop or turn. You're also much more deepstacked in cashgames, so when you push on a coinflip it's actually a profitable play.

What most people on this forum do, I'm assuming, for PokerStars structure, is open-fold up to AJo in any position for the first 2 levels, open-raise the premiums, and limp small pocket pairs. Some people call up to t80-t90 with pps in order to catch a set; this is much better than calling with suited connectors since you're much more likely to have a strong, made hand that you can push allin with.

And finally, I'm basing my assumption on:

- your post count
- this sentence: "Part of my style that I feel is different to most is that early on when the blinds are small I like to see alot of flops with suited connectors, sometimes in MP, but usually in LP." When I hear people talking about "their style" I usually think, "donk". It's kind of like seeing a 6BB open-raise from UTG at early blinds levels - he could have aces or he could have kings, but either way, the play is dumb. The truth is there is little 'style' involved in SNGs until higher stakes. I guess if you consider raise amounts or playing AQs or not UTG 'style' you can say that, but a style to me is the difference between how Halling and Nazgul play at 10/20 - 25/50.
- you're asking questions to which there are no definite answers. Most experienced poker players know that with vague, general questions like these, the most common answer is 'It depends.'


Welcome to the STTF forum, though. I'm sorry if you feel I'm looking down upon you as a beginner, but these are questions we all see day-in, day-out from people who have just started the game. If you've been playing cash for a while, congrats - I'm not good enough for cash.

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

why if you can play cash profitably would you want to switch to sng's. from what i understand cash games are potentially more profitable than sng's.

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

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why if you can play cash profitably would you want to switch to sng's. from what i understand cash games are 10x more profitable than sng's.

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FYP.

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

I sometimes do. I think the key is that in most SnGs the implied odds are much smaller than we think they are. So you can't chase at marginal odds. You have to get a great price to chase.

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

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why if you can play cash profitably would you want to switch to sng's. from what i understand cash games are potentially more profitable than sng's.

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so no one in this forum can play cash games profitably?

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

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so no one in this forum can play cash games profitably?

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for the most part, yes

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

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so no one in this forum can play cash games profitably?

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for the most part, yes

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seconded. I play SNGs because I don't know how to play poker. Past 100NL, there's a TON more profit to be made.

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

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so no one in this forum can play cash games profitably?

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for the most part, yes

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Come on I kill the 25NL [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

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so no one in this forum can play cash games profitably?

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for the most part, yes

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I thought I was the only one. whew!

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

I have opposite problem.Yesterday I lost 14 buy-ins, when I played SNG (11+1) with maniacs.Playing tight, I almost every sng stay alive down to last 6-5 players, with reasonable stack.Then start stealing blinds.
BUT yesterday, 5 of 6 players see the flop, I cannot bluff.They call BB, raise , push EVERY flop or preflop. It is pure gambling when you try win over 5 players in one push.

I want to say that, playing tight it beginning of tournament is right, because there is lot of players who call you with anything and drawing against 5 callers is deadly for me.

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have opposite problem.Yesterday I lost 14 buy-ins, when I played SNG (11+1) with maniacs.Playing tight, I almost every sng stay alive down to last 6-5 players, with reasonable stack.Then start stealing blinds.
BUT yesterday, 5 of 6 players see the flop, I cannot bluff.They call BB, raise , push EVERY flop or preflop. It is pure gambling when you try win over 5 players in one push.

[/ QUOTE ]

then tighten up and let them tangle. if they are that loose.

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

without reading above...

TAG play is better suited for low limit sng's because it allows you to exploit the biggest mistake in low limit players, the fact that they call too much...

aggresive betting chasing draws doesn't help you much because these fools will call you down w/ middle/bottom pair.

I believe TAG poker has been tested as the most profitable style of play in SNG's...

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I have opposite problem.Yesterday I lost 14 buy-ins, when I played SNG (11+1) with maniacs.Playing tight, I almost every sng stay alive down to last 6-5 players, with reasonable stack.Then start stealing blinds.
BUT yesterday, 5 of 6 players see the flop, I cannot bluff.They call BB, raise , push EVERY flop or preflop. It is pure gambling when you try win over 5 players in one push.

[/ QUOTE ]

then tighten up and let them tangle. if they are that loose.

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yes, but if you have about 2000 chips and blinds are 200/400 you cannot wait too long for good cards!And if you get them, you have still 5 players on the flop.

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

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I have opposite problem.Yesterday I lost 14 buy-ins, when I played SNG (11+1) with maniacs.Playing tight, I almost every sng stay alive down to last 6-5 players, with reasonable stack.Then start stealing blinds.
BUT yesterday, 5 of 6 players see the flop, I cannot bluff.They call BB, raise , push EVERY flop or preflop. It is pure gambling when you try win over 5 players in one push.

[/ QUOTE ]

then tighten up and let them tangle. if they are that loose.

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yes, but if you have about 2000 chips and blinds are 200/400 you cannot wait too long for good cards!And if you get them, you have still 5 players on the flop.

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dont know what to tell u bro but pushing at 200/400 and getting 5 callers is something i am not familiar with.

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

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I have opposite problem.Yesterday I lost 14 buy-ins, when I played SNG (11+1) with maniacs.Playing tight, I almost every sng stay alive down to last 6-5 players, with reasonable stack.Then start stealing blinds.
BUT yesterday, 5 of 6 players see the flop, I cannot bluff.They call BB, raise , push EVERY flop or preflop. It is pure gambling when you try win over 5 players in one push.

[/ QUOTE ]

then tighten up and let them tangle. if they are that loose.

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yes, but if you have about 2000 chips and blinds are 200/400 you cannot wait too long for good cards!And if you get them, you have still 5 players on the flop.

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You are being irrational and exaggerating.

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

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IF you do flop top pair with this sort of hand, would you bet into a few players to atleast see whee you are, or do you believe this is a waste of chips since if you get played back at you are pretty much folding, and the amount of times you get played back at when betting top pair with a suited connector doesn't justify the amount of times you win a small pot with it only, and therefore ONLY play these hands for straights/flushes.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the problem with playing suited connectors. You flop a pair or a draw far more often than you'll flop a flush or straight. Then you don't want to give it up. Let's say you limp 98s, and the board is 942. You bet out with top pair, and three people call. One of them has Q9, one has a deuce, and the other one has a ragged ace. Now what are you going to do on the turn? The Q9 will never raise, he'll just bleed you all the way to the river, where the donk with the ace will hit and scoop the pot.

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

chipEV != $EV.

Each chip lost is worth more than each chip gained.

Therefore pot odds have to be much greater in an SnG than cashgame for it to be +EV to chase.

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I have opposite problem.Yesterday I lost 14 buy-ins, when I played SNG (11+1) with maniacs.Playing tight, I almost every sng stay alive down to last 6-5 players, with reasonable stack.Then start stealing blinds.
BUT yesterday, 5 of 6 players see the flop, I cannot bluff.They call BB, raise , push EVERY flop or preflop. It is pure gambling when you try win over 5 players in one push.


[/ QUOTE ]
then tighten up and let them tangle. if they are that loose.


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yes, but if you have about 2000 chips and blinds are 200/400 you cannot wait too long for good cards!And if you get them, you have still 5 players on the flop.


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dont know what to tell u bro but pushing at 200/400 and getting 5 callers is something i am not familiar with.


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It's obvious that this guy has no idea what the 10BB rule/pushbotting/ICM is and is probably standard raising 3BB on the bubble at 200/400 with 3000 chips.

Re: SNG advice :; chasing draws in sngs.
 

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yes, but if you have about 2000 chips and blinds are 200/400 you cannot wait too long for good cards!And if you get them, you have still 5 players on the flop.

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Ouch, how does one argue with that... Unexploitable argument..