Allin every time right?
 

PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($21.40)
UTG ($10.55)
UTG+1 ($35.05)
UTG+2 ($24.85)
Hero ($24.75)
MP2 ($13.95)
MP3 ($29.55)
CO ($11.65)
Button ($17.30)
SB ($18.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.25, UTG+2 calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.5</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises to $10.25</font>, Hero calls $8.75, Button calls $5.25.

Flop: ($31.40) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets $14.6 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $14.50 (All-In), Button calls $7.05 (All-In).

Turn: ($67.55) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

River: ($67.55) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $67.55

EP villian is unknown(later found to be TP), has been sitting for less than a rotation. LP villian is a somewhat solid regular, possibly tilting though from a bad beat which is why he's short stacked.

I only question my call because EP villian did, to me it's a no-brainer but maybe I'm wrong. Also any reason to push preflop? I figured with the pf action the rest was going in regardless. Thoughts?

Re: Allin every time right?
 

this looks fine, you're not getting away from it ever.

Pushing pf and playing as you did are both fine, I think I like your version better.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

i call all day

Re: Allin every time right?
 

This is all-in pre-flop every single time. The pot is already huge. Any FE you have vs the button pre-flop is a good thing, not a bad thing. I'd much rather play this heads up than 3 way, since the pot was already huge.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

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Any FE you have vs the button pre-flop is a good thing, not a bad thing.

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Can you elaborate on this? Not saying your wrong but I don't understand why I want button out.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

i poosh preflop all day every day after that PF action.

looks like you lost to top set, but i'd still call here and hope hes dronking with AK or donking queens. i wouldnt be suprised if AA, KK, and AK were the 2 hands involved here

Re: Allin every time right?
 

It is always going into the middle, I prefer getting that done preflop.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

The only question about this hand is, why didn't you push before he flopped a set of kings PREFLOP when he put half his stack behind a rereraise?

Re: Allin every time right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Any FE you have vs the button pre-flop is a good thing, not a bad thing.

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This is wrong. It is pf. We have AA. If we pushed pf and 12 people called us, it would be great. If I am pushing this pf, it is only because I think both people will call me (or that both will fold light on the flop).

Re: Allin every time right?
 

Easiest preflop all-in ever. I could see smoothcalling if it were heads up, if villains were any good, or if they had a lot of money left behind and could possibly fold to your all-in.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i poosh preflop all day every day after that PF action.

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Re: Allin every time right?
 

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Any FE you have vs the button pre-flop is a good thing, not a bad thing.

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Can you elaborate on this? Not saying your wrong but I don't understand why I want button out.

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You don't want the button out, you're big favorite here and you want as much money in the pot as possible. I think the outcome of this hand will likely be the same whether the money goes in preflop or flop. One argument for pushing preflop might be preventing your opponents from escaping after the flop if they miss with AK. Or get scared off when overcards hit vs. JJ or QQ. Given the size of the pot however, they are pretty much committed either way so it probably doesn't make a difference.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

Msgr-
Button could still fold if we pushed pf at that point. I'm not saying I don't like pushing pf-- I do-- but we want to see if we can get both their stacks.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

My main reason for not pushing was fear of losing them, in retrospect there was probably little chance either of them fold. I also figured the rest of the money was going in on the flop almost always, maybe they fold an A high flop some % of the time but that will be rare. I don't think pushing is wrong here at all , and is what I would do by default. I don't really think it matters much though what I do pf. On the flop I believe TT-AA and AK are likely holdings for villians with QQ/KK &amp; AK being the most likely, and a small % of the time some mid pp or other random garbage. Given that read should I consider folding?

Re: Allin every time right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Given that read should I consider folding?

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No.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Any FE you have vs the button pre-flop is a good thing, not a bad thing.

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This is wrong. It is pf. We have AA. If we pushed pf and 12 people called us, it would be great. If I am pushing this pf, it is only because I think both people will call me (or that both will fold light on the flop).

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This is 100% silliness. I know you are only exaggerating when you say 12 PF callers is good when you have AA. But exaggerations do help us reach the crux of the issue. I can EASILY construct a set of 13 hands in which your AA is a big dog if all 12 opponents call your all-in pre-flop. I can probably construct a set of hands that results in your AA drawing DEAD vs 12 opponents.


More opponents does not always equal good. This notion needs to be dismissed immediately.

Now, in this particular hand, we are debating the merits of 2 opponents vs 1. Personally, I never want more than 2 opponents seeing the flop with my pocket Aces. Sometimes I want it heads up, sometimes I want it vs 2. Three people seeing the flop vs my pocket Aces reduces my winning % to about 64% vs any 3 random hands.

In regards to Hero's hand, I prefer heads up to playing this 3 way. The pot is already big. If I have zero FE vs button, then all-in is the best move, since I want all money in the pot NOW, while my hand is best. If I have some amount of FE, that is great. I can narrow the field, which increases my odds of winning by quite a few percentage points.

Since Hero is going to felt with this 100% of the time, all we are doing when calling, is giving other players the implied odds to hit a set.

What is more important in this hand?

A) An increased % of winning an already big pot?
B) Or juicing an already big pot by decreasing your odds of winning? (And also giving opponents correct implied odds to hit a set)

Re: Allin every time right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can probably construct a set of hands that results in your AA drawing DEAD vs 12 opponents.

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LOL, do it.

notevenhere,

You are right in saying that if AA and 12 other hands went to the felt pf, we would be a dog. We would also be a hugely +EV dog. Stop worrying about winning pots and start worrying about winning money.

Also, if we call instead of push here, we are definitely not giving villains odds to hit a set.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

lol at there being a thread about calling flop once 1/2 our stack is in preflop and people discussing fold equity when we hold the nuts.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

push all in preflop, pot is already almost 20 preflop, yoru concern is winning whats in there and protecting your hand, not trying to extract more. pot is too big to risk being outdrawn by the likely kk/qq/jj yoru up against. they are both likely calling your all in anyway

Re: Allin every time right?
 

I think the big question is, would you have posted this if you won? No, you wouldn't because it's incredibly standard and are just looking at the results.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

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I can probably construct a set of hands that results in your AA drawing DEAD vs 12 opponents.

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LOL, do it.

notevenhere,

You are right in saying that if AA and 12 other hands went to the felt pf, we would be a dog. We would also be a hugely +EV dog. Stop worrying about winning pots and start worrying about winning money.

Also, if we call instead of push here, we are definitely not giving villains odds to hit a set.

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Button is getting correct implied odds to hit his set.

There is $26.15 in the pot before button calls. Hero has $14.50 to go. Add that up, and we have $40.65. Add that to the $14.60 from UTG+1, and we have $55.25. Better than 10-1 implied odds to call.


You speak as if winning money and pots have no correlation at all.

Button being in the hand decreases our chances of winning every time. This is plain indisputable fact. Button being in the hand also increases the size of the pot. So in order to want the button in this pot, the increased amount of money he puts in must justify the decrease in Hero's chances to win.

If your argument is that the decrease in winning % is offset by the extra money put into the pot by button, this is a valid argument. I would not happen to agree, but I can see the merits. However, making a flippant statement like:

"Stop worrying about winning pots and start worrying about winning money."

is just ignoring the issue altogether, which is not in any way instructive.

Pokerstove puts AA vs any random hand at ~85% chance to win. It puts AA vs any 2 random hands at ~70% chance to win. Now I know we are not up against random hands here. We're up against some fairly defined hands. Say, for instance, we are up against KK and QQ. Against a single one of those hands, we are 82% to win. Playing vs both, we are 67% to win. Same 15% difference. Obviously, the news is much better if we are up against at least one AK. But for sake or argument, allow for the 15% to be used here.

By pushing the button away, you gain an extra 15% equity. To put it another way, the number of times you lose this hand is reduced by HALF.

Now, I personally doubt that an all-in pre-flop by the Hero in this situation pushes either player out. By the looks of the hand, all 3 are going to the felt.

To say that forcing the button to fold is a bad idea in absolute terms, that is simply incorrect. Our FE in this situation vs button, however tiny it is, is EV+ imo.

But say you don't believe that argument. Why is calling better? Doesn't calling give Button-Villain who is holding KK a reason to bail when an A falls on the flop? Doesn't a King calling make his hand? Why do you want to make any kind of post flop decision in this hand?

Re: Allin every time right?
 

I am going all-in postflop regardless. While letting KK get scared by an A may happen, we also may let KJ catch a K and stack off while he might've folded pf had we pushed. Either option is fine IMO.

However, you fail to see that the added money from having the 3rd person go all-in pf more than makes up for our loss in equity.

We have the nuts pf, why wouldn't we want as many people as we can to go all-in?

Re: Allin every time right?
 

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I am going all-in postflop regardless. While letting KK get scared by an A may happen, we also may let KJ catch a K and stack off while he might've folded pf had we pushed. Either option is fine IMO.

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You're willing to put either of the 2 opponents on something as horrible as KJ? If they are truly stupid enough to follow KJ this far, why would you ever think they wouldn't put it all-in pre-flop?

KJ is simply not a likely holding.

Either option is fine? Sure. I simply prefer the one that is better among the two that are fine.

[ QUOTE ]
However, you fail to see that the added money from having the 3rd person go all-in pf more than makes up for our loss in equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you actually reading my posts? How is it that I have failed to see this? I specifically address this issue directly, which is something you have never done up until now.

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We have the nuts pf, why wouldn't we want as many people as we can to go all-in?

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You want as many people to go all-in as possible when you have the nuts. 100% AGREED. And you have the nuts PRE-FLOP. So get all the damn money in pre-flop right? Yet your advice is to smooth call PF, then push on the flop. Are you contending HERO has the nuts post-flop?



All-in pre-flop accomplishes 2 things:

1) Gets in all your money with the best hand.
2) Takes advantage of our FE (however tiny a % it may be), in order to increase our chances of winning an already huge pot. If there in fact we had 0% FE, then we increased the size of the pot and maintained our equity, which is always good when our equity is this high.


Calling pre-flop accomplishes:

1) Allowing button implied odds for set
2) Pushing flop when we may no longer have the best hand
3) Giving a hand like KK a chance to get away from hand when A falls, and a chance to correctly call when K falls. Apply this to any lower PP hitting a set as well.
4) Increasing the size of pot at the expense of out winning %.


You better believe that reason #4 trumps reasons #1-3 by a ton to call instead of push PF.

[ QUOTE ]
push all in preflop, pot is already almost 20 preflop, yoru concern is winning whats in there and protecting your hand, not trying to extract more. pot is too big to risk being outdrawn by the likely kk/qq/jj yoru up against. they are both likely calling your all in anyway

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100% agree with this.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

Why would you not get all your chips in preflop? This is your dream scenario preflop with aces.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

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Easiest preflop all-in ever. I could see smoothcalling if it were heads up, if villains were any good, or if they had a lot of money left behind and could possibly fold to your all-in.

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I understand pushing pre-flop, that's given, but there are three or four people in this thread that want people to fold to my preflop AI.

WHY?

That's absolutely ridiculous. We want them to call, all day long, unless they're getting pot-odds to call (which they aren't with a lower PP or AK, which is what they would normally have here).

So what's the deal? Are people here that much afraid of a bad beat?

Re: Allin every time right?
 

Calling PF is pretty clearly better IMO. You don't need to "protect" your aces preflop in a situation like this, the more the merrier.

If you can't stomach losing a pot to a 77 that catches up then move down a level.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

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I can probably construct a set of hands that results in your AA drawing DEAD vs 12 opponents.

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LOL, do it.


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I was bored but I think he is right. Any fewer opponents and youve atleast got outs to chop.(I may be wrong as I dont have an odds calculator that will work with 10+ hands):

Hero has Ac As

vs.

AhAd
JcJs
TcTs
ThTd
5c5s
5h5d
2c2s
3c4c
KcQs
9s8s
7c6c
7s6s

So if you ever find yourself playing 13 handed and you get all-in preflop and your opponents turn over all these hands, your drawing dead. Just getup and leave, dont wait to see the board because it will not matter (Actually if your in a 13 handed game and everyone gets allin with these hands..... Stay because that should be a damn good game)

Dopey [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Allin every time right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was bored but I think he is right. Any fewer opponents and youve atleast got outs to chop.(I may be wrong as I dont have an odds calculator that will work with 10+ hands):

Hero has Ac As

vs.

AhAd
JcJs
TcTs
ThTd
5c5s
5h5d
2c2s
3c4c
KcQs
9s8s
7c6c
7s6s

So if you ever find yourself playing 13 handed and you get all-in preflop and your opponents turn over all these hands, your drawing dead. Just getup and leave, dont wait to see the board because it will not matter (Actually if your in a 13 handed game and everyone gets allin with these hands..... Stay because that should be a damn good game)

Dopey [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Kc Qc 9c 8c 2d

Re: Allin every time right?
 

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Easiest preflop all-in ever. I could see smoothcalling if it were heads up, if villains were any good, or if they had a lot of money left behind and could possibly fold to your all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand pushing pre-flop, that's given, but there are three or four people in this thread that want people to fold to my preflop AI.

WHY?

That's absolutely ridiculous. We want them to call, all day long, unless they're getting pot-odds to call (which they aren't with a lower PP or AK, which is what they would normally have here).

So what's the deal? Are people here that much afraid of a bad beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the thread carefully. Don't misrepresent what others above have been saying. I'll recap since you don't understand the point of contention.

Hero concedes that he is all-in no matter what the flop brings. So the question is:

What is better? Calling pre-flop, or pushing?

Pushing is standard, so we don't need to discuss why it is good. However, some have advocated calling instead of pushing. So we are discussing the merits.

The advocates for calling are contending that pushing may result in people folding.

My point is that if they fold, great. We've just increased our chances of winning in a big pot. If they come along, great. Now we have all our money in with the best hand.


Also, did you miss the discussion on how calling gives implied odds to someone with any PP?


Calling is less EV than pushing. That is the argument.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Kc Qc 9c 8c 2d

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Kc is used (Kc Qs)

Re: Allin every time right?
 

it is not about hero being scared, it is about villians getting scared.

Say one of them has AK, he does not hit the flop and gets away the majority of the time.

One of them has KK, an ace falls and he shuts down.

Maybe one of them has QQ, then a King or an Ace frightens them.

Just get the money in preflop before the villians work out they are behind or fear they are behind.

If you get the pot heads by pushing, then fine, dead money has been created and your a bigger favourite to take the pot down at showdown.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Kc Qc 9c 8c 2d

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Kc is used (Kc Qs)

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goddamn i even ctrl+f searched it.. wtf

Re: Allin every time right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Calling PF is pretty clearly better IMO. You don't need to "protect" your aces preflop in a situation like this, the more the merrier.

[/ QUOTE ]


You need to protect any hand you have. Why are you even raising AA in the first place, if the more the merrier is true? How many players do you find is the "merriest" to play pocket aces against? One? Two? Four? Six?

Against 5 players, AA is a dog to the entire field.


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If you can't stomach losing a pot to a 77 that catches up then move down a level.

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What does this even mean? Who has a weaker stomach: The guy who puts all his money in pre-flop, or the guy who does not?

Re: Allin every time right?
 

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Why are you even raising AA in the first place, if the more the merrier is true?

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We raise for value and protection. What we lose in protection we gain in value.

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Against 5 players, AA is a dog to the entire field.


[/ QUOTE ]
True, but I don't care about whether I'm a dog, I care about EV. If its more EV to call and try to string the button along, then thats what should be done.

I think there is probably minimal EV difference between pushing and hoping he calls, and calling and pushing the flop. I think the money goes all-in roughly the same either way. So, as I said before, I think both are fine. It just depends on your read of the button.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Calling PF is pretty clearly better IMO. You don't need to "protect" your aces preflop in a situation like this, the more the merrier.

If you can't stomach losing a pot to a 77 that catches up then move down a level.

[/ QUOTE ]

with a pot this big and so little left to win this makes no sense. calling is clearly wrong

Re: Allin every time right?
 

[ QUOTE ]

You need to protect any hand you have. Why are you even raising AA in the first place, if the more the merrier is true? How many players do you find is the "merriest" to play pocket aces against? One? Two? Four? Six?

Against 5 players, AA is a dog to the entire field.




[/ QUOTE ]
Because the pot is so big compared to stacks already, people don't have the implied odds to call with anything. Therefore they would be making a mistake to call, therefore you should give them every to do so. I think the only question here is whether calling or raising is better to do so, and I think calling is.

And 6-handed AA might be less than 50% to win the pot, but you have SIX PLAYERS MONEY in the pot! It's definitely a higher variance play which will lose money the majority of the time (hence my comment about stomaching variance) but if you can't see how this is a hugely +EV situation then I can't help you.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
Easiest preflop all-in ever. I could see smoothcalling if it were heads up, if villains were any good, or if they had a lot of money left behind and could possibly fold to your all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand pushing pre-flop, that's given, but there are three or four people in this thread that want people to fold to my preflop AI.

WHY?

That's absolutely ridiculous. We want them to call, all day long, unless they're getting pot-odds to call (which they aren't with a lower PP or AK, which is what they would normally have here).

So what's the deal? Are people here that much afraid of a bad beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the thread carefully. Don't misrepresent what others above have been saying. I'll recap since you don't understand the point of contention.

Hero concedes that he is all-in no matter what the flop brings. So the question is:

What is better? Calling pre-flop, or pushing?

Pushing is standard, so we don't need to discuss why it is good. However, some have advocated calling instead of pushing. So we are discussing the merits.

The advocates for calling are contending that pushing may result in people folding.

My point is that if they fold, great. We've just increased our chances of winning in a big pot. If they come along, great. Now we have all our money in with the best hand.


Also, did you miss the discussion on how calling gives implied odds to someone with any PP?


Calling is less EV than pushing. That is the argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quoted the wrong post. My bad. Wanted to quote the person who said why raise when you lose 50% of the time.

Re: Allin every time right?
 

[ QUOTE ]

My point is that if they fold, great. We've just increased our chances of winning in a big pot. If they come along, great. Now we have all our money in with the best hand.


[/ QUOTE ]
Missed this post.

This is where your logic breaks down. Having more players coming along is pure +EV for us. Why be content with pushing and probably folding everyone out when you can have more?

Re: Allin every time right?
 

hero raised, utg raised big, button raised even bigger, they are very likely not folding, not both of them anyway. at this point u must reraise because the pot has gotten so big that winning whats in it now is more important then trying to win any future bets that wont even be as big as the pot.

u could make an arguement for calling if stacks were very deep because u have the potential to win a lot to make up for your small mistake. yoru trading a small mistake for a potentially huge one. that possiblity isnt rpesent when button only has 7 more to win and utg only has 15

Re: Allin every time right?
 

also if 1 of them has ak/jj/qq seeing a flop allows them to possible get away from their hand, when theyd almost certainly call an all ii considering how much they have invested compared to their stack