KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

taking some time to review my pt stats, found some interesting things, like im winning mon-sat, but im negative bb/100 on sundays? anyway, KJs seems to be a leak of mine, so i figured id throw a few hands out there, see what im doing wrong. looking at all streets here.


Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

River: (7 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

villian appears to be LAG but not enough hands to have a good read

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

i would bet/fold river. flush comes in, you don't beat anything he's raising with except a bluff or a weaker king.

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

I play this hand the same way up until the river.

I think the river is a bet/fold situation. He's not raising this river with any hand that you beat.

Unless he's a chronic bluffer. But if you have notes that he is a chronic bluffer, then the river is an easy check/call.

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

I fold preflop, is that bad?

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

Unless this was an extra-loose table with no preflop raising, I fold preflop.

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop, is that bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

probably about as bad as me raising it pf [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

i'd probably pay the guy off and expect to see QT, JT, or T9 of hearts. any other flush would be really stupid.

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop, is that bad?

[/ QUOTE ]
Too tight.

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop, is that bad?

[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on the game.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

I guessing flush with position, AX suited, maybe 2 high suited hearts.

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

1) Do not fold this PF.
2) With this flop, the suited element became worthless. You are now playing top pair with a good but vunerable kicker. I like the 3 bet to "flush out" (pun intended) whether you are up against two pair or a flush draw.
3) Turn is a blank, bet it.
4) River - flush card. To me, that was your villian's most obvious holding. C/C or B/F leave you in the same place financially, so I would C/C the river.

Take a look at the subset your KJs hands and ask yourself if you are playing them too aggressively after it is clear that being suited won't matter. Being suited is an ON/OFF switch in terms of value. Your KJs becomes KJo in terms of hand value after your flop.

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

Hmm. I'm not sure if there's anything I would have done differently.

Check/Call the river since it puts the obvious flush out there?

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

I raise Preflop (depending on the game). If you would have raised, there is a chance that a solid MP1 would fold his KT or maybe QJh. Hell, I even fold KQo to a TAG UTG raise sometimes.

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

I would out them on Axh possibly Qxh. I think a check/call is the correct play on the river, but with certain reads I would bet it. I really don't think you will see too many bluff-raises on the river at this level.

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

So many people seem to be advocating a check/call line on the river here. I don't see it. It seems to me that this river should definitely be a bet/fold line.

I recently had to take a stronger look at value betting on the river - it was one of the weaker parts of my game. I had difficulty bet/folding a lot of rivers, and would end up check/calling.

Isn't this a standard spot for a bet/fold?

We have top pair with a playable kicker. Any worse K, and even any T or middle pocket pair, will pay us off here when we bet, but will check it through if we check.

The board is semi-scary, so most of the times we won't even get raised here by two pair or the like.

If we do get raised, we can safely fold - we are definitely beat.

Seems like a standard bet/fold spot for me, or am I missing something about that line.

I think the only time I check/call this is, as I said before, against a chronic bluffer. With someone like that, always give them a good chance to bluff at a pot when you have a half decent made hand on the river.

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

I check/call. Like someone said earlier, it costs the same to you as a bet/fold, and you get to peg a bluff every once and a while.

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

[ QUOTE ]
you get to peg a bluff every once and a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

But not as often as you get called by a worse hand when you bet.

-McGee

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

Bet/fold is easy to talk about but not everyone follows through on it. Bet/fold means you have to be ahead 1/2 of time for that stategy to work. If you call the raise all the time you have to be ahead 2 out of 3 times for the bet to make sense. This is where reads come into play. Under the right read, even check/fold could be the right play.

We just don't have much to go on here. The call by the villian Hero's flop 3 bet, coupled with villian's call on the turn cause me to weight the outcome in favor of the villian having hit a flush draw. But absent facts for a genuine read, I cannot argue with B/F and even check/fold as arguable alternatives.

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

[ QUOTE ]
probably about as bad as me raising it pf

[/ QUOTE ]

So do I, on most tables...

And I would bet/fold the river. I also usually just call down once raised in this situation (on the flop) but since the villan is slightly LAG, your 3bet looks fine.

Edit: I actually meant that your bet/call on the river was fine... I forgot to take into account that villan has been slightly LAG. If he was tighter and not crazy, I would bet/fold.

Haupt_234

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

[ QUOTE ]
taking some time to review my pt stats, found some interesting things, like im winning mon-sat, but im negative bb/100 on sundays? anyway, KJs seems to be a leak of mine, so i figured id throw a few hands out there, see what im doing wrong. looking at all streets here.


Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

River: (7 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

villian appears to be LAG but not enough hands to have a good read

[/ QUOTE ]

On the river bet-call is almost certainly your worst option. Since you read him as a lag i prefer check-call. If you read him to be more predictable I'd bet-fold.

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

well, i read him as a lag, but he also seemed quite loose. i agree the bet/call was probably my worst option, but i cant really decide between c/c and b/f.

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I raise Preflop (depending on the game). If you would have raised, there is a chance that a solid MP1 would fold his KT or maybe QJh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we want MP1 to fold dominated hands?

[ QUOTE ]
Hell, I even fold KQo to a TAG UTG raise sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should fold KQo to a TAG UTG raise every time, almost without exception. This is the only compelling reason you give to raise (not to say this isn't a raise).

Re: KJs party 2/4 (my big leak)
 

I want to see a showdown against any kind of LAG or even someone who is starting to look like a LAG if I have at least TP. On this hand, I would check/call the river because:

1. You can always see a showdown for max 1 bet.
2. I don't see him checking behind any hand that he would have called with had you bet anyway.
3. He will bluff if checked to when he would have just folded his missed hand had you bet. LAGs love to bet scare cards.
4. You won't have to pay off a made flush as much.
5. You won't fold a winner to a river bluff raise.