The infamous river bluff
 

Villain has a backwards playing style: he seems to call down when he has something, and c/r or bet with nothing. But he never seems to fold until either someone reraises him, or he gets to the river and has nothing. He has c/r'd me twice in this session and one time showed down Q-high and the other time a small pocket pair.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.20 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks (with the intention of raising the river).

River: (3.20 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>...

Final Pot: 6.20 BB

Comments on all streets welcome, but I'm hoping to discuss the river raise bluff. Btw, I don't ever do this. Normally I think river bluffs are a mistake; I just really thought villain was out of line and the pot was small enough for villain to let go of his hand pretty easily.

Re: The infamous river bluff
 

You seem to have a pretty good read on this guy - how does he play his draws? It's a pretty draw-heavy flop and I would guess that a guy like this would CR you here with a flush or straight draw, but I dunno.

As is, how do you know that he isn't calling down with some piece of the board? It seems like players that like to go aggro with nothing will usually do it on the cheap streets. If he's got something like 78 and wants to just call down, your turn check-through may be enough to get him to value-bet the river, and I think he's going to have a hard time not calling for one more when the board is so non-threatening. If he's a thinking player, he'll realize that you wouldn't check through the turn on such a juicy board if you had a real hand, and that your PF raise makes you very unlikely to have picked up anything on the river.

So I'm guess I'm saying that maybe this isn't the right spot. I think this move would be better if he had c/red the flop and bet the turn and river (consistent with your read that he has nothing).

Re: The infamous river bluff
 

the problem w/ this is that you're not representing anything. if your opponent has anything at all and is a thinking player (which i don't know if he is or not), he should be calling this raise.

i'd look at the board, wonder why in the world villain (you, from the other guy's perspective), would check a drawy board on the turn. there isn't a remotely near unbreakable hand that you should be raising from MP unless you're the type to be raising 67s there.

i'd rather bet the turn, and bet the river (see haupt's hand) than check and raise the river.

Re: The infamous river bluff
 

Like others said, this is a tough one due to board texture. If Villain actually stops and thinks, he'd see that your play really doesn't make any sense at all. Unless maybe you raised PF with 44. If he has any piece, he calls you down.

That being said, it simply becomes a question of how often Villain has a piece of this board here. You're getting 2.1-1 here on your bluff - if it successful more often than 1 in 3 times, then it's a good bluff. Will Villain have some piece of this board more often than 2 times in 3? This becomes a factor of his hand range (which is probably pretty wide here) and your read on how he played the hand.

From the sounds of your read, it's probably pretty close. I don't mind it - I could go either way.

Re: The infamous river bluff
 

It's really read dependant. You seem confident in your read and your reasoning is decent, so taking a shot at a guy if you think he's FOS is fine.

Re: The infamous river bluff
 

I don't get it... If I was villain, I am confused as hell. So confused I'm calling you with any pair whether it be top, bottom or pocket.

If he loves to bluff checkraise, and you felt you could make the bluff this hand, I would continue to represent strength throughout the hand. I would bet the turn and river, and if he checkraised the river I would 3 bet it and use that as my bluff if I felt this was the right hand. Yeah, it costs 2 more bets, but it wins 2 more if it works.

And I think that that bluff would work more often than the one you attempted in that position against that villain.

Not to mention, are you sure that was the right spot? You said he checks and calls when he is strong, and bets and checkraises when he is weak, so according to your read, he is potentially showing strength throughout the hand.

Re: The infamous river bluff
 

Haha, sounds like a vengeance raise to me! Smack him around for his foul play!! . . . haha, but in all seriousness I think this is a good play given the readings . . . he seems like the type that would try to steal the pot with nothing on the end after the turn was chacked thru.

EDIT: is he pretty loose preflop?

Re: The infamous river bluff
 

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i'd rather bet the turn, and bet the river (see haupt's hand) than check and raise the river.

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Normally, I completely agree with this logic. Completely. But while I think K-high might be ahead here, I still don't want to call a c/r K-high, regardless of my opponent.
And the fact that he called the flop didn't signal anything to me. I saw him call the flop previously with 7-high, two overcards.

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You're not representing anything with this raise.

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Exactly. Except possibly 55 or 44. That's what makes this move questionable, at best. However, my opponent seems to be a tier 1 sort of player. I don't think he's looking at the board and trying to put me on a hand. In his mind it's something like "he raised for a big bet?! he must have a hand!"

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Vengeance raise.

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Maybe. Although I was destroying him at the time.

Re: The infamous river bluff
 

Calling is a better play than raising this river.

Re: The infamous river bluff
 

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Calling is a better play than raising this river.

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Yeah, I thought about this afterwards, and was wondering if anyone would say so. If he's got a pair, he's probably calling my river raise. The only time calling is incorrect, is if he's got A-high, which I think he would have laid down to my bluff.

Re: The infamous river bluff
 

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Calling is a better play than raising this river.

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Yeah, I thought about this afterwards, and was wondering if anyone would say so. If he's got a pair, he's probably calling my river raise. The only time calling is incorrect, is if he's got A-high, which I think he would have laid down to my bluff.

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A lot of the weaker ace-highs have paired up, and if he has something like AQ here, I think he might actually look you up.

Re: The infamous river bluff
 

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Calling is a better play than raising this river.

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Yeah, I thought about this afterwards, and was wondering if anyone would say so. If he's got a pair, he's probably calling my river raise. The only time calling is incorrect, is if he's got A-high, which I think he would have laid down to my bluff.

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A lot of the weaker ace-highs have paired up, and if he has something like AQ here, I think he might actually look you up.

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Agreed, although I'm not sure why he's betting AQ on the river there, but maybe it's better to just call here.

Re: The infamous river bluff
 

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Calling is a better play than raising this river.

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Yeah, I thought about this afterwards, and was wondering if anyone would say so. If he's got a pair, he's probably calling my river raise. The only time calling is incorrect, is if he's got A-high, which I think he would have laid down to my bluff.

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A lot of the weaker ace-highs have paired up, and if he has something like AQ here, I think he might actually look you up.

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Agreed, although I'm not sure why he's betting AQ on the river there, but maybe it's better to just call here.

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Arguably, AQ should bet this river for value. Hero's hand looks a lot like something like A7s here.

Re: The infamous river bluff
 

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Arguably, AQ should bet this river for value.

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What about heros current hand. Do you ever bet the turn? Seems SOP to me but you didn't comment.

Re: The infamous river bluff
 

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Arguably, AQ should bet this river for value.

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What about heros current hand. Do you ever bet the turn? Seems SOP to me but you didn't comment.

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SOP = Standard Operating Procedure?

Re: The infamous river bluff
 

Says who? You think you can win the hand by calling? you set up the river raise - so do it.

Re: The infamous river bluff
 

And what about all you great players and you bet/fold line. Would you call a raise on the river if YOU were on a bet fold line....

not

Re: The infamous river bluff
 

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Arguably, AQ should bet this river for value.

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What about heros current hand. Do you ever bet the turn? Seems SOP to me but you didn't comment.

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SOP = Standard Operating Procedure?

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yes.