KQo in EP
 

I play 1/2 generally on a variety of sites, and I've been questioning myself lately with how to play KQo either under the gun or in 2nd position.

My first instinct is to raise, and take control of the hand early, but I know that basically anyone who calls me is leading... what's the smartest move?

Re: KQo in EP
 

I used to always use the same approach, but am questioning myself too recently. I've begun just calling with KQo and if not reraised behind me, figure I have the best hand with a K or Q. I will usually raise KQs. And then I make myself think if I shouldn't reverse the philosophy since suited hands are better multiway hands than offsuit. I dunno, good question. Interesting to hear what others say.

Re: KQo in EP
 

Sure, I mean, you're behind a lot of what folds too (eg Ax, 22 etc). But remember that PF raising is not just about "being ahead", it's also about taking control of a hand, and making your opponents draw against you. The best part is that you then get to represent whatever hits, regardless of whether you've hit nothing, a draw, or a huge hand.

Re: KQo in EP
 

I like raising KQo early. As you said, control, AND there are still fish who will cold call, AND KQ hits a lot with low risk of domination, AND the flop usually results in an easy read about being ahead or behind. Look at the # of people who cold call you. Are there really 3-4 aces out against you every time? Or is everyone folding every time? Neither statement is true all the time. Adjust to your current conditions.

I know online is tight and I play live, but I love KQ because of its high "hit" factor and ease of finding an exit should that A hit. Raise with AT-AQ and you always have a little doubt about AK behind you somewhere. I think it is relatively easy to play this hand well.

And if you really want to mess with people's heads, raise KQo UTG and UTG+1 and LIMP AA from UTG (only).

Re: KQo in EP
 

i think it's the general consensus of these forums that there isn't much difference between raising or calling KQo in EP with a lot depending on how you play post flop.

Re: KQo in EP
 

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i think it's the general consensus of these forums that there isn't much difference between raising or calling KQo in EP with a lot depending on how you play post flop.

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Yep.

I tend to raise it UTG everytime.

Haupt_234

Re: KQo in EP
 

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i think it's the general consensus of these forums that there isn't much difference among raising or calling or folding KQo in EP with a lot depending on how you play post flop.

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FYP

Re: KQo in EP
 

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but I know that basically anyone who calls me is leading...

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You give them too much credit.

Be more wary of the reraise, not so much the coldcall.

b

Re: KQo in EP
 

KQ off and AJ off are the 2 hands that are giving me the most trouble in EP pre flop. I've read very compelling arguments on this site for calling, folding, and raising with these hands. I agonize over what to do with these hands way more than AK or JJ, both pre flop and after.
Oh, and by the way, all this talk about "automatically folding this hand to a raise cuz I know I'm beat" is for 2+2 reader consumption only; very few people are able to b1tch fold this automatically to any raise everytime. How many players do you see fold EP calls to one simple raise with the average number of callers we experience at low limit?
To me, this play is table dependant (aggresive table I tend to pitch this believe it or not)and player dependent if raised. I don't get excited if I look down and see KQ off and AJ off until MP and there have been no raises. I'd rather have 88, its easier to get away from.

Re: KQo in EP
 

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How many players do you see fold EP calls to one simple raise with the average number of callers we experience at low limit?


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You shouldn't be folding this for 1 more bet behind you. 2 bets, yes. However, you should be folding it to most raises if you're going to be calling 2 cold. If it's an LP opening for a raise, then it's usually a raise/fold spot.

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very few people are able to b1tch fold this automatically to any raise everytime.

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These same very few likely don't beat the game that much, either. They also tend to coldcall with alot more than just KQo or AJo.

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To me, this play is table dependant (aggresive table I tend to pitch this believe it or not)

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As you should be if you're not sure how to play it. Except in steal situations.

I'll pitch them on wild tables.

b

Re: KQo in EP
 

I virtually always raise KQo UTG in the live games I play in. I figure if the raise itself is 0 or slightly +EV, then the metagame considerations make it worthwhile. Some nitty weak players seem to think that KQ is a "trap hand" and when they see you raise UTG with it, they'll think you are much more aggressive/bad then you really are (I had one guy actually make fun of me for raising KQs in the CO after a couple of limpers!).

Plus if it really doesn't matter much whether you fold, raise, or call it (which is 2+2 consensus after much debate) then might as well raise, 'cause raising is more fun!

Re: KQo in EP
 

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Some nitty weak players seem to think that KQ is a "trap hand" and when they see you raise UTG with it, they'll think you are much more aggressive/bad then you really are (I had one guy actually make fun of me for raising KQs in the CO after a couple of limpers!).


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Note that they say this as they coldcall with KTo.
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b

Re: KQo in EP
 

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i think it's the general consensus of these forums that there isn't much difference among raising or calling or folding KQo in EP with a lot depending on how you play post flop.

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FYP

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thanks chesspain. you caught me sticking a little bit of my personal bias in my post as i really like KQ [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: KQo in EP
 

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KQ off and AJ off are the 2 hands that are giving me the most trouble in EP pre flop. I've read very compelling arguments on this site for calling, folding, and raising with these hands. I agonize over what to do with these hands way more than AK or JJ, both pre flop and after.
Oh, and by the way, all this talk about "automatically folding this hand to a raise cuz I know I'm beat" is for 2+2 reader consumption only; very few people are able to b1tch fold this automatically to any raise everytime. How many players do you see fold EP calls to one simple raise with the average number of callers we experience at low limit?
To me, this play is table dependant (aggresive table I tend to pitch this believe it or not)and player dependent if raised. I don't get excited if I look down and see KQ off and AJ off until MP and there have been no raises. I'd rather have 88, its easier to get away from.

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if you're agonizing over it, just fold. some things are clear cut, and you'll see that manifested in these forums when someone posts a hand, and everyone says the same thing over and over again. when there's heavy debate, a lot will come down to specific table situations, and your overall game plan (nut peddling rock that occasionally works the respect vs. an observant opponent, a lag that pushes a lot of hands hard and is difficult to read, or a tricky tag that mixes in different hands/ways of playing them).

or if you really can't decide, try randomizing it. maybe play only a black king and a red queen and fold the rest, maybe base it on time, every third KQo, or some randomization of your own design.

Re: KQo in EP
 

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or if you really can't decide, try randomizing it. maybe play only a black king and a red queen and fold the rest, maybe base it on time, every third KQo, or some randomization of your own design.

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What would that do for you? I can see the point if you call it 2/3rd and raise it 1/3rd. But with folding/calling it's just silly. You simply cut down 2/3rd of the hands you play, as if you had been dealt 27o magically 2/3rd of the time you get KQo. There's no variantion in play here, nor is there any deceptive value. Either you think it's +EV to play at the current table, or you don't. There's no point in flipping a coin to decide that. Now you could do this for raising/limping as it puts off your opponents as to what you're holding.

Yao gives this advice in his book for KQo (e/m/l):

first-in: limp;fold raise raise
limpers: call call;raise raise
raised fi: fold fold fold;reraise late
raised limp: x fold fold;call in loose

So according to him it's either a limp or a fold in early position, a raise in other first-in situations, and a fold against a raise. I usually limp it from early position on a typical loose table. Also note that KQs is much stronger. There he suggests a limp or raise in early position, and in most other cases a raise or a cold call (unless you're up against one single raiser)

Re: KQo in EP
 

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You shouldn't be folding this for 1 more bet behind you. 2 bets, yes. However, you should be folding it to most raises if you're going to be calling 2 cold. If it's an LP opening for a raise, then it's usually a raise/fold spot.


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I can honestly say I hardley ever 3bet KQo even if I think it will isolate my opponent. Even if he is a maniac... What spots do you do this in? How bad does your opponent have to be?

I, of course, isolate with something like AJo/ATo against the right type of player but that is because they have SD value.

But I can only see 3betting KQo if you have position, believe you can get it HU or close to it, and view your opponent as weak and willing to laydown ace high after peeling the flop- even on a dry board.

Haupt_234

Re: KQo in EP
 

If I see a player to my right consistantly raising with KQo and AJo from EP, i am going to change my response to his raises (ie...more re-raises to isolate instead of calling or even folding).
Looking at card frequency, if you raise with JJ+ and KQ+, almost 3/4ths of your raising hands do not include a pair.If the flop comes ragged, I am going to jump on you like Shaq on a cheeseburger. Because of your raising range, I'm more likely to re-raise with a wider range of hands than I would a tighter player. One thing you don't want to see holding KQo is a raise behind you. You have concerns even if the flop hits you. How much fun is that?
I have experienced this phenomenon live at my local B&M when I used to raise with AJo from EP (I play 10/20 there vs 2/4 and 3/6 online). The more observant players started raising me back and/or jumping on the flop when ragged because they knew 2/3rds of my raises were non-pairs. I now do more limping with AJo live but look to do more checkraising if I hit the flop. I think this is the way to play KQo also IMO.

Re: KQo in EP
 

I'll cold call 2 bets with KQo if I have position. If I've limped with it in EP, and it gets raised and re-raised, you can't cold call those 2 bets because there is a high chance that you're dominated by one of the two.

I think the same thing goes for raising in EP. If you make it 2 bets, and someone behind you makes it 3, I'd assume you're dominated, but I can't fold to that extra bet. But even if I connect on the flop I'm still concerned and looking for a way to get out of the hand against some aggressive play.

Re: KQo in EP
 

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If I see a player to my right consistantly raising with KQo and AJo from EP, i am going to change my response to his raises (ie...more re-raises to isolate instead of calling or even folding).
Looking at card frequency, if you raise with JJ+ and KQ+, almost 3/4ths of your raising hands do not include a pair.If the flop comes ragged, I am going to jump on you like Shaq on a cheeseburger. Because of your raising range, I'm more likely to re-raise with a wider range of hands than I would a tighter player. One thing you don't want to see holding KQo is a raise behind you. You have concerns even if the flop hits you. How much fun is that?
I have experienced this phenomenon live at my local B&M when I used to raise with AJo from EP (I play 10/20 there vs 2/4 and 3/6 online). The more observant players started raising me back and/or jumping on the flop when ragged because they knew 2/3rds of my raises were non-pairs. I now do more limping with AJo live but look to do more checkraising if I hit the flop. I think this is the way to play KQo also IMO.

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Why wouldn't they raise when you just limp then? After all, it's a much bigger sign of a weak hand. Just how wide would you open up your 3 bet range? Just PPs?

How often do you think you'll really see him raise those hands in a session? Basically, you're saying you'll call down with any pair if a face card doesn't hit. Or maybe try and make a move with overcards after the flop.

If someone wants to isolate me when my bottom range of raising is AJo or KQo, good luck. People that do this tend to really pay off well when I do have a hand. They end up marrying any pair just in case. It still amazes me sometimes that, being one of the tightest players in my room, I get 4 coldcallers to an EP raise.

Your problem likely lies in lack of postflop play with the hands. If someone is constantly isolating you, you adjust to them. It's not a good idea to isolate a 'thinking' TAG.

b

Re: KQo in EP
 

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You shouldn't be folding this for 1 more bet behind you. 2 bets, yes. However, you should be folding it to most raises if you're going to be calling 2 cold. If it's an LP opening for a raise, then it's usually a raise/fold spot.


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I can honestly say I hardley ever 3bet KQo even if I think it will isolate my opponent. Even if he is a maniac... What spots do you do this in? How bad does your opponent have to be?

I, of course, isolate with something like AJo/ATo against the right type of player but that is because they have SD value.

But I can only see 3betting KQo if you have position, believe you can get it HU or close to it, and view your opponent as weak and willing to laydown ace high after peeling the flop- even on a dry board.

Haupt_234

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You kind of answered your own question with your last paragraph.

Other than blind steal stuff, 3 bet a loose LP raiser/chronic stealer. I notice some will go as far as HJ now. KQ is usually well above their average hand their raising with. This is even more true with maniacs. If you're able to, you can open up your range even more.

As far as maniacs, the earlier the position, the more you have to account for all the players behind you and how they've been playing him. Also if you have loose blinds if it's LP, but many will also realize who you are 3 betting. So if it's a tight table, or a table that plays tight to you or just to 3 bets in general, you can re-raise a maniac a little more liberally. But you still have to be aware of how the table might adjust to you if you do this alot. Especially if you're showing down less than marginal 3 bet holdings.

And yes, sometimes a Maniac will have a big hand. Doesn't mean your 3 bet was wrong given his possible range of hands. Those are the fun days: When he's showing every crap hand possible until you isolate him and he shows big pairs over and over. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

b

Re: KQo in EP
 

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I'll cold call 2 bets with KQo if I have position.

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Good luck with that. Especially against EP raisers. You don't think there's a good chance you're dominated?

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If I've limped with it in EP, and it gets raised and re-raised, you can't cold call those 2 bets because there is a high chance that you're dominated by one of the two.


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The tougher one is raising in EP, then folding it when it comes back to you for 2 more bets.

b

Re: KQo in EP
 

I look at KQo AJo and KJs in EP as a fold unless I have decent reads accross the table. In the first three or four orbits at a table without at least sketchy reads on the players at the table I fold. I have a lot of confidence in my ability to let go of my hand or play well enough post flop to make me a winner.

Re: KQo in EP
 

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The tougher one is raising in EP, then folding it when it comes back to you for 2 more bets.


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This is what I was alluding to in my first reply on this thread. People on this site swear they fold if their EP raise with KQo gets re-raised behind them, but its largely an urban legend. They will call, and play the rest of the hand with a funny look on their face. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: KQo in EP
 

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If someone wants to isolate me when my bottom range of raising is AJo or KQo, good luck. People that do this tend to really pay off well when I do have a hand.

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Bernie my man, I find we all play well when we really have a hand. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] It's the 3/4ths of the time you don't have one that my TT's will give you gas with your raising range.
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Your problem likely lies in lack of postflop play with the hands. If someone is constantly isolating you, you adjust to them. It's not a good idea to isolate a 'thinking' TAG.

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Thank you for helping me identify my "problem", although that's not why I posted. And as my post stated, I did adjust; Instead of always raising pre flop, I started c/r more so when the flop hit with TPGK , it tends to be the best hand into unraised pots. I still trap weaker players for extra bets, as well as increase the amount of c/r I do over the course of an evening, which I feel is an excellent way to slow down overly aggressive players. I don't get stuck trying to figure out how to proceed with a group 4 hand (HEPAP)out of position with a raiser and potentially strong callers behind me.
Well, I'm done with this topic. As someone else stated, the volume of different opinions on this topic reflect the complexity of this situation.I think AJo and KQo are the AK's of the future. Whiffing with them after you have
bumped the pot raises some of the same questions, but the answers are more difficult because the hands are fundementaly weaker. Perhaps we can agree on that.

Re: KQo in EP
 

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The tougher one is raising in EP, then folding it when it comes back to you for 2 more bets.


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This is what I was alluding to in my first reply on this thread. People on this site swear they fold if their EP raise with KQo gets re-raised behind them, but its largely an urban legend. They will call, and play the rest of the hand with a funny look on their face. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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I made that exact fold awhile ago playing 4/8 live. The dealer who I'm friendly with (nice lady, not that good a player) says "what are you doing? i'll have to teach you how to play some day". she then peeks at my cards while mucking them (yeah, i know, a little dodgy). Flop came Q high, the action was heavy between the 3 better and the capper. 3 bettor had AQ, capper had KK. I would have been drawing dead. I turned to the dealer and said "how do you like the fold now".

It's nice to be right once in awhile.

Re: KQo in EP
 

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The tougher one is raising in EP, then folding it when it comes back to you for 2 more bets.


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This is what I was alluding to in my first reply on this thread. People on this site swear they fold if their EP raise with KQo gets re-raised behind them, but its largely an urban legend. They will call, and play the rest of the hand with a funny look on their face. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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You realize I was talking about not just a reraise behind you, but 2 reraises behind you, right?

I wouldn't fold to a single raise behind me.

b

Re: KQo in EP
 

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Bernie my man, I find we all play well when we really have a hand. It's the 3/4ths of the time you don't have one that my TT's will give you gas with your raising range.


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Funny, many don't play well when they have a hand. People can and do actually screw up holding the nuts. Missing bets all over the place.

The thing is, you get to have fun trying to decipher whether I have any overcard that hits to your TT. As I mentioned, you'll likely be planning on calling down alot hoping to god I missed. Or betting when I check to you on a turn after I've hit.

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I don't get stuck trying to figure out how to proceed with a group 4 hand (HEPAP)out of position with a raiser and potentially strong callers behind me.

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You're likely giving those callers too much credit behind you.

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I think AJo and KQo are the AK's of the future. Whiffing with them after you have
bumped the pot raises some of the same questions, but the answers are more difficult because the hands are fundementaly weaker. Perhaps we can agree on that.

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It's all about how you play it postflop. Just study overcard play. Lots of stuff out there on it.

b