Trying to learn NL... 88 middle set , questions on every street
 

Ok, limit player here, I've been playing strictly NL for about the last two weeks and trying to get the hang of this game.

sorry no hand history, but here it is:

1/2 200 max 9 handed

stacks:
Me:305
MP (seems kinda loose and passive): 70
Button (seems alright, havent payed much attention to him): 175

2 limpers, followed by limp by MP and button, i check in the BB with 88(no [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img])

flop(pot 11):
K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I bet out 9, MP calls, button raises to 24, I call, MP calls

At this point, my thought process is that I have the best hand, MP probably has a flush draw, Button's probably on something like KQ. A 3bet here will probably win the pot outright, but i think a call here is more +EV. Comments on this?

turn(pot 83):
2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

check, check, bet 45, we both call (MP is all in for 44)

At this point, I'm pretty confident that MP has a flush draw and I dont think button will allow a free card, dont want to give him a chance to get away from his hand cheap. Would a checkraise be better here? There's no way MP's folding a flush draw here with only $44 left, but I think it makes it too easy for button to get away from his K.

River(215)
9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

What's my play here? Button has 105 left. I checked, but I think a small bet would've been good, because if my reads are right, I dont think button would be able to fold to a $50 bet on the river.

Also, if the heart doesnt come on the river, I think it's an easy all in. Button can't fold a K getting 3:1 on that river, might look like i'm bluffing a missed flush....


So what do you guys think? stick to limit?

Re: Trying to learn NL... 88 middle set , questions on every street
 

3-bet the flop, or failing that, bet/3-bet the turn. Your goal with a set is to get all your money in against the top pair and flush draw hands. No one will put you on a set until it's too late. Give your opponents a chance to make a mistake; if they fold, give them gold stars.

River is meh. I guess you're checking to induce a bluff and calling any bet getting at least 3:1.

Re: Trying to learn NL... 88 middle set , questions on every street
 

Try not to worry about people folding draws and top pair at 200NL. Just get all in on the flop.

Re: Trying to learn NL... 88 middle set , questions on every street
 

either 3 bet flop or c/r all in on turn.

Re: Trying to learn NL... 88 middle set , questions on every street
 

"Try not to worry about people folding draws and top pair at 200NL. Just get all in on the flop."

please this is stupid, how many people in the NL200 full ring calls all in with a flushdraw in an unraised pot?? not many

either 3bet the flop or bet out /checkraise the turn, why on earth would you ever just call the turn

Re: Trying to learn NL... 88 middle set , questions on every street
 

[ QUOTE ]

please this is stupid, how many people in the NL200 full ring calls all in with a flushdraw in an unraised pot?? not many

[/ QUOTE ]

True, I missed that it was FR. However given that it's FR his flop raise probably means he has bottom set. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Trying to learn NL... 88 middle set , questions on every street
 

[ QUOTE ]
please this is stupid, how many people in the NL200 full ring calls all in with a flushdraw in an unraised pot?? not many

[/ QUOTE ]

Something like A9hh or A3hh *might* call here (combo draw) but making the flop 3-bet an all-in does seem like a ridiculous overbet.

Re: Trying to learn NL... 88 middle set , questions on every street
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
please this is stupid, how many people in the NL200 full ring calls all in with a flushdraw in an unraised pot?? not many

[/ QUOTE ]

Something like A9hh or A3hh *might* call here (combo draw) but making the flop 3-bet an all-in does seem like a ridiculous overbet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say push the flop... people get weird and nutty ideas. A nice rr will do, with the intent of getting all in.

(Seriously, when your mother said eat your dinner, did you complain about not being able to fit it all in your mouth at once?)

Re: Trying to learn NL... 88 middle set , questions on every street
 

I like your logic as to the button and maximizing value from him and not scaring his King away. However, you are allowing MP in so cheap on the flop and then on the turn that it makes this play difficult to like. You really need to be putting pressure on MP early on, pricing him out.

So, the first question is what is button raising with here on the flop?: Button's raise to 24 means he is strong - he could have bottom set, he could have K8 (not uncommon for this level). Most likely he has KJ or KQ and is over playing it OR Ah9h and is making the right play and needs to be priced out too!

So to the hand: There is 53 in the pot when it gets to you. MP has 61 left. You know you are getting MP's money in now, so the last thing you want to do is play this passively and give MP great odds. Also, did you ever think about what will happen if a heart shows up on the turn? Button is going to stop betting, perhaps (he did on the river, right?), and at the same time, you are going to be committed to MP's made hand. So you need to price MP out while hoping to keep the button in. How do you do that?

Say to reraise to 80 here. Button is going to call a lot, so you get his money in there and you are well ahead. Now there is 190 in the pot and 56 more for button to call. Well, if button is weak, you may very well see his money go in there with KQ. If he has a set, boom, you're gold. K8? Ship it, holla! If he has a terribly misplayed flush draw, you are good too. But let's say button folds - well, you just built yourself a $190 pot giving yourself excellent odds to win against isolated short stack. that's what you want.

Re: Trying to learn NL... 88 middle set , questions on every street
 

Great post, silver.

Re: Trying to learn NL... 88 middle set , questions on every street
 

I'd either 3bet flop or c/r turn allin depending on reads.

Re: Trying to learn NL... 88 middle set , questions on every street
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, you are allowing MP in so cheap on the flop and then on the turn that it makes this play difficult to like.

[/ QUOTE ]

All-in is cheap? wtf? You want to abolish table stakes in order to get more out of him or something?

[ QUOTE ]
You really need to be putting pressure on MP early on, pricing him out.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you plan to do that? He's a 3:1 dog against two opponents with dead money already in the pot. By the time you actually determine that he's drawing he has put more money in the pot and generated the necessary overlay to play for his stack.

[ QUOTE ]
There is 53 in the pot when it gets to you. MP has 61 left. You know you are getting MP's money in now, so the last thing you want to do is play this passively and give MP great odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf?

[ QUOTE ]
Also, did you ever think about what will happen if a heart shows up on the turn? Button is going to stop betting, perhaps (he did on the river, right?), and at the same time, you are going to be committed to MP's made hand. So you need to price MP out while hoping to keep the button in. How do you do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't, but you can get all of his money in the pot, what more do you expect?

[ QUOTE ]
Say to reraise to 80 here. Button is going to call a lot

[/ QUOTE ]

He's also going to fold a lot.

[ QUOTE ]
, so you get his money in there and you are well ahead. Now there is 190 in the pot and 56 more for button to call. Well, if button is weak, you may very well see his money go in there with KQ. If he has a set, boom, you're gold.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has a set you're getting his money no matter what you do.

[ QUOTE ]
If he has a terribly misplayed flush draw, you are good too. But let's say button folds - well, you just built yourself a $190 pot giving yourself excellent odds to win against isolated short stack. that's what you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, what you want is to get all of his money, not $24 of it.

Re: Trying to learn NL... 88 middle set , questions on every street
 

[ QUOTE ]
At this point, I'm pretty confident that MP has a flush draw and I dont think button will allow a free card, dont want to give him a chance to get away from his hand cheap. Would a checkraise be better here? There's no way MP's folding a flush draw here with only $44 left, but I think it makes it too easy for button to get away from his K.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you just call here and then bet the river into a protected pot it is equally easy to get away from a K. And unless he is terrible he is always checking behind on the river with it. Just get it in on the turn. He either has a hand he really likes here or he doesn't, but waiting until the river just risks a scare card needlessly.

Re: Trying to learn NL... 88 middle set , questions on every street
 

I usually raise PF to juice the pot a little. I like the call on the flop, but you have to either bet the turn or check raise all in.

Re: Trying to learn NL... 88 middle set , questions on every street
 

Flop: Personally I think if you can't expect it's 50/50 or better for you to get a call on the flop when you 3b, then you're not three betting often enough. I like a massive 3b here because I'll occasionally make such a massive 3b with a combo flush draw+pair or other huge draw, and I don't like that being the only hand I'll make such a bet with...I wanna make sure I'm doing it with big hands at times as well. The odds one of these guys has a King and looks you up are reasonable.

It's also not the only move so I don't mind calling or 3b a smaller amounts, say making it $60 or $65.

Turn: If you 3b the flop, if I haven't moved in on that flop, then I open all in on the turn.

If you call the flop raise, then I open on the turn. That flop raise could EASILY have been a free card play as I think you're almost for sure planning to bet more than $15 on any turn card if button has a flush draw and calls. Pot at $83, I open for $70ish and hope button moves all in.

Check raising the turn is reasonable but I prefer leading. But if you call the flop and check that turn, you absolutely MUST raise.

River: If there's a call on my turn bet, I'm all in on any [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] river...good for him if he's got a flush draw and hits it. He's got less than $80 left in a pot that'll have over $200. I also don't like a check on a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] river, there's no bluff to induce. If the river isn't a heart, it's a crap shoot checking to induce the bluff or value betting all in, and I'll mix it up 50/50.

As played, I think you've gotta bet that river all in. He's checking behind with worse hands and betting better ones. Are you gonna fold to his bet? If so, maybe check. If not, bet it all in cause you could get called by worse hands.

You also have to realize that you're losing a lot of EV in this hand (which you say you're gaining by playing it slow) to flush draws where you're making it correct for them to draw to their flush. You have got to be charging money on that turn if you're not gonna do it on the flop. Your hand is nowhere near powerful enough to allow your opponents to set their own price for seeing the river.

- C -

Re: Trying to learn NL... 88 middle set , questions on every street
 

I c/r flop for sure, if not you're giving MP 5 to 1 to hit his 4 to 1 shot.

As played, c/r turn for sure. You want to play big pot. If he has hand, maybe he comes along. If he's on draw, he only puts in more money when youre behind.

As played, with stack sizes, it comes down to read. Does he bet turn again with flush draw? I probably c/c river getting 3 to 1 for my money on his all in.

But you gotta put in raise earlier.