Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

I thought long and hard before posting this on this forum. I think it is the most appropriate.

Firstly, I don't think it belongs to politics as I fail to see the issue as a Rep Vs Dem one.

To avoid flames I am not discussing here the religious or sacramental meaning or "marriage". To me that is neither here nor there, somewhat quaint and irrelevent. To paraphrase Marx, why would I want to join a club that doesn't want me. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I just don't get the point about gay marriage being an issue. Marriage in the legal sense is a "legal union" or "legal entity" that has rights and responsibilities like those associated with other legal entities, like private or public or limited companies. Making those rights and responsibilities available to gays, or universally, has no impact at all on the heterosexual ones. It is not taking anything away from them. It simply allows people to enter into that agreement without discrimination. Call it "pairage" if you have an issue with the definition of marriage and change the statute to say that pairage has exactly the same right and responsibilities than marriage. Simple, effective and less discriminatory. Bear in mind that there are many economic and other advantages to this "legal union"! The most imporatnt ones being the effect on the application of inheritance law and the right to make medical decisions on the partner's behalf, if incapacitated, for instance. Those are by no means the only advantages, but it will vary from juridiction to juridiction.

It seems to me that, the way the statutes are currently worded, it would be the same as limiting directorship or shareholdership of some legal entities (companies, for instance) to heterosexuals only. Very clearly discriminatory.

I think that our society seems to be totally blind to the interferences of religious authorities (mullahs, bishops and other so called moral authorities ) into the secular aspects of life.

What prompt this post is the regressive two states decision to reverse gay marriage and the pontificating (what else could he do given his position [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ) by Benedict XVI on his trip to spain.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

The issue is not very important to me but if I had to take a stance I'd be against it. My main reason is that it adds to the amount of "unbrainwashing" I have to give to my kids as they grow up.

Regardless of what society says, I am raising my kids according to the concept that men and women living together, having sex etc. is natural and the same with two people of the same sex is unnatural, bad, to be ashamed of, means you're a loser, a deviant, etc.

I'm not saying this to convince others of my position, but rather that I will be raising my kids this way no matter what anyone says.

When they go to school and gay marriages are accepted by the law and by society, they will hear stuff that contradicts my teachings. That will force me to explain it all and to the extent that their friends' parents can't be bothered to explain it to their friends, it will put a rift between my kids and some of their friends. It will also contribute to my kids distrusting the school system, becoming anti-society, creating alliances with religious extremists eventually leading to a war against the liberals and atheists.

I'm exaggerating for effect here and I'm sure the impact will not be that great, but the DIRECTION is bad and that's why I'm against it.

You could say I'm wrong to believe what I believe and that's fine, but I'd appreciate it if my kids didn't have to be exposed to your moral opinions when they go to state subsidised public schools.

If teachers never mentioned the issue, never said stuff like "Johnny has two daddies and that's ok because some people have a mommy and a daddy, others two mommies, others two daddies and it's all good", then I'd have no problem at all. But somehow I can't see it staying out of the school system.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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My main reason is that it adds to the amount of "unbrainwashing" I have to give to my kids as they grow up.

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You mean "rebrainwashing".

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

I am an atheist and against gay marriage, so it's not just religious folk that have an issue with it. While your arguments are reasonable, I don't believe society should sanction depravity. Publicly recognizing gay couples is on par with legalizing polygamy or beastiality IMO.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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I am an atheist and against gay marriage, so it's not just religious folk that have an issue with it. While your arguments are reasonable, I don't believe society should sanction depravity. Publicly recognizing gay couples is on par with legalizing polygamy or beastiality IMO.

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I was wondering if you could go a little more indepth on this please. I am always confused by the comparison to polygamy and beastiality. Especially when the issue of marriage is brought up when two adults of the same sex want to get together for a monogomous relationship. I have trouble seeing what's so wrong with these relationships.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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If teachers never mentioned the issue, never said stuff like "Johnny has two daddies and that's ok because some people have a mommy and a daddy, others two mommies, others two daddies and it's all good", then I'd have no problem at all. But somehow I can't see it staying out of the school system.

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Do you have a problem with them teaching the sky is blue?
Isn't it a fact in our society that some children comes from homes with 2 daddies, some from homes with two mommies, some from 1 mommy, some from 1 granny and an aunt, whatever.
I could see a problem if teachers were teaching "this is the way it should be, it a better union." but why should teachers not teach what IS ??
puzzled in flatbush.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

" Making those rights and responsibilities available to gays, or universally, has no impact at all on the heterosexual ones. It is not taking anything away from them."

False. SOciety ends up with many fewer functional nuclear families, a requisite for a healthy future society. The early returns from Europe are in. Gay marriage is the begining of the end for families.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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I have trouble seeing what's so wrong with these relationships.

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Sad indeed. Moral relativism has found purchase.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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Isn't it a fact in our society that some children comes from homes with 2 daddies, some from homes with two mommies,

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WHile it is a fact, it is a tiny percentage, and the bulk of America still sees it as deviant. That used to be enough for the left educators to leave it alone.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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My main reason is that it adds to the amount of "unbrainwashing" I have to give to my kids as they grow up.

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You mean "rebrainwashing".

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I'm betting my BR you have no kids. With luck for mankind, that will remain unchanged.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

FlFishOn,

Do you have any intention of bring forth and arguments or just insulting other posters?

A question for you though. In what ways are we seeing the negative impacts of gay marriage in Europe? How do we know these are directly connected? Do you have any evidence to back up these opinions?

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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WHile it is a fact, it is a tiny percentage, and the bulk of America still sees it as deviant. That used to be enough for the left educators to leave it alone.

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So, schools should only teach common place facts and not bother with US volcano's or people that have walked on the moon. What is your threshold number or percentage before facts should be taught?

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

Research Holland. I saw a full exposition of this but where? I can't remember, I read too much.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

Unworthy of reply.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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Research Holland. I saw a full exposition of this but where? I can't remember, I read too much.

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I am having trouble finding anything finding anything that expresses a negative view of the aftermath of gay-marriage legalization. I have found that the rates of gay marriage have gone down. And that only 3.6% of marriages are between persons of the same sex.

I'll keep looking, but initial findings are not too promising.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

All societies have a stake in the future generations. It's a huge responsibility, to propagate the species.

Instead of asking straights to find fault with gay sham 'marriage' I think it is much more important for gays to prove, beyond any scientific doubt, that gay sham 'marriage' is totally benign with respect to the future generations every society requires. I'm certain this can not be done.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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but why should teachers not teach what IS ??

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That's fine as long as they give the full range of facts such as...

- the law says Johnny has 2 daddies but biologically that's impossible. In reality he has a mommy somewhere but she either died or abandoned him.

- the percentages of people with the various family structures are...

- the percentages of people who think same sex partnerships represent deviant behavior are...

- my opinion (ie. the teacher's) is irrelevant to what yours (the student's) should be. Ask your parents if you want help in deciding what's good and bad on this issue


If there were laws about how the subject could be addressed to kids and care was taken to make it purely factual and non-opinionated then I suppose I could go along with it.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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All societies have a stake in the future generations. It's a huge responsibility, to propagate the species.

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True. Although the homosexual population does exist and there is no question about that. I think that population is very small and should be allowed to exist in any way they want to which does not do harm to others. They just want to be together and have the same legal rights as other citizens in commited relationships.

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Instead of asking straight to find fault with gay sham 'marriage' I think it is much more important for gays to prove, beyond any scientific doubt, that gay sham 'marriage' is totally benign with respect to the future generations every society requires. I'm certain this can not be done.

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I am confused by this statement. Are you asking for gay people to prove that their existance will not be a detriment to future generations of people?

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

FlFishOn,

Is this the type of thing you wanted me to find?
Link

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

That's what I read. I spent 20 minutes and couldn't find it.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

I wish we could all put gay marriage behind us so that we can start to focus on what is really corrupting society - interracial marriage.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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I am confused by this statement. Are you asking for gay people to prove that their existance will not be a detriment to future generations of people?


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No. They simply need to prove that gay sham 'marriage' is benign to society instead of insisting that the straight community defend heterosexual marriage.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

i wish i could put flfishon in a bottle and everytime someone tried to disagree with me I could let him out to pwn them.

gay marriage deprives straight people of the coolness of being in the marriage club. straight people view marriage as something with specific entry requirements and it is special to be a part of this club, and they don't want gay people bastardizing their clubs entrance requirements, because then the club isn't really very meaningful anymore.

being gay is caused by changes in your brain (and probably other stuff too but at least that), due to both genetics and environment. i bet we'll have a pill that fixes it right up within 20 years...

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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being gay is caused by changes in your brain (and probably other stuff too but at least that), due to both genetics and environment. i bet we'll have a pill that fixes it right up within 20 years...

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So much better if they could have an anti-bigotry pill. Sadly, being sane, I don't believe that's likely.

Perhaps we could have a go at breeding bigotry out of the population - what do you reckon?

chez

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

I agree with you - gay marriage should be the same "legislatively". If religious people see them as not "proper" marriages then they shouldnt recognise them. The argument that allowing this distorts what is socially acceptable and makes it harder to bring up kids correctly seems strange to me. I think the same can be said for any controversial legislation a parent disagrees with. Continued to its conclusion it seems to imply that society shouldnt have rules regarding how contentious issues are handled - this seems backwards to me.

I also agree that it is a hidden religious influence from our history (especially here in australia where, until recently, religion stayed pretty much out of politics).

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

This isn't a religious issue and to frame it as such is disingenuous.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

On my part at least it's just mistaken, not disingenuous. I thought that the legislative existence of marriage was implemented to give some legal bite to the religious concept. I also assumed that's why gay marriage wasnt recognised (because it doesnt fit with what is religiously condoned as marriage).

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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I was wondering if you could go a little more indepth on this please. I am always confused by the comparison to polygamy and beastiality. Especially when the issue of marriage is brought up when two adults of the same sex want to get together for a monogomous relationship. I have trouble seeing what's so wrong with these relationships.

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It's a perversion of the natural state of affairs, and as such it weakens the social fabric in the same way polygamy and bestiality do. Consenting adults can of course do what they wish, but society needs to sets some standards on the degree of perversion it's willing to publicly acknowledge and embrace.

Social moral standards affects the development of children. For examples, adults are free to engage in heterosexual orgies, but it's harmful for children to learn about these at an early stage or think they're an acceptable behaviour. Teenagers coming of age are best served by seeking out monogamous, emotionally fulfilling relationships with members of the opposite sex. Decreeing other alternatives to be acceptable is bad for society and individuals in my opinion.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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I thought that the legislative existence of marriage was implemented to give some legal bite to the religious concept. I also assumed that's why gay marriage wasnt recognised (because it doesnt fit with what is religiously condoned as marriage).

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You're probably right. My only point is that while atheists tend to be more liberal (blasé?) than theists, some of us have very similar morals and ideas about society for reasons not related to god or the bible. There are good secular arguments for most religious positions on social policy.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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...My only point is that while atheists tend to be more liberal (blasé?) than theists, some of us have very similar morals and ideas about society for reasons not related to god or the bible. There are good secular arguments for most religious positions on social policy.

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I dont know how it is in america (I had assumed it was moreso than here) but many advocates of legislation like this in australia specifically argue from religious premises. Certainly, if there are secular reasons then they should be considered.

I was agreeing with what I had assumed midge was saying - namely that religious justification has no part in politics.

I'm interested you regard homosexuality as against nature, yet not institutionalised marriage itself. Are you sure that monogamy is the "natural" state of affairs? I confess ignorance, but I would have guessed that primitive humans wouldnt follow this practise (multiple partners is common enough in a society with entrenched monogamistic practises - I think it would be even greater without societal constraints).

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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I was wondering if you could go a little more indepth on this please. I am always confused by the comparison to polygamy and beastiality. Especially when the issue of marriage is brought up when two adults of the same sex want to get together for a monogomous relationship. I have trouble seeing what's so wrong with these relationships.

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It's a perversion of the natural state of affairs, and as such it weakens the social fabric in the same way polygamy and bestiality do. Consenting adults can of course do what they wish, but society needs to sets some standards on the degree of perversion it's willing to publicly acknowledge and embrace.

Social moral standards affects the development of children. For examples, adults are free to engage in heterosexual orgies, but it's harmful for children to learn about these at an early stage or think they're an acceptable behaviour. Teenagers coming of age are best served by seeking out monogamous, emotionally fulfilling relationships with members of the opposite sex. Decreeing other alternatives to be acceptable is bad for society and individuals in my opinion.

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And in the same way that anal sex, condoms, vibrators, internet porn, electricity, vaccines and GMOs do?

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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It's a perversion of the natural state of affairs, and as such it weakens the social fabric in the same way polygamy and bestiality do. Consenting adults can of course do what they wish, but society needs to sets some standards on the degree of perversion it's willing to publicly acknowledge and embrace.

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C'mon Phil you're just making this up. There is no natural state of affair of which it's a perversion.

chez

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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...My only point is that while atheists tend to be more liberal (blasé?) than theists, some of us have very similar morals and ideas about society for reasons not related to god or the bible. There are good secular arguments for most religious positions on social policy.

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I dont know how it is in america (I had assumed it was moreso than here) but many advocates of legislation like this in australia specifically argue from religious premises. Certainly, if there are secular reasons then they should be considered.

I was agreeing with what I had assumed midge was saying - namely that religious justification has no part in politics.

I'm interested you regard homosexuality as against nature, yet not institutionalised marriage itself. Are you sure that monogamy is the "natural" state of affairs? I confess ignorance, but I would have guessed that primitive humans wouldnt follow this practise (multiple partners is common enough in a society with entrenched monogamistic practises - I think it would be even greater without societal constraints).

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Practically all the impetus to the anti-gay marriage in the US comes from religious groups. Specifically it comes from Christian groups, although that is most likely simply a result of Christian groups being the more prominent and populous of the groups over here. Can't say as I've heard a lot from Jewish or Muslim groups speaking out against homosexuality, although I would imagine they probably? hold similar views.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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It's a perversion of the natural state of affairs, and as such it weakens the social fabric in the same way polygamy and bestiality do. Consenting adults can of course do what they wish, but society needs to sets some standards on the degree of perversion it's willing to publicly acknowledge and embrace.

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C'mon Phil you're just making this up. There is no natural state of affair of which it's a perversion.

chez

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Especially in a modern society that has come almost the entire way down the road of completely divorcing sex from reproduction.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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It's a perversion of the natural state of affairs, and as such it weakens the social fabric in the same way polygamy and bestiality do.

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The only perversion is you calling it so. It is found in all cultures and in most species.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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Teenagers coming of age are best served by seeking out monogamous, emotionally fulfilling relationships with members of the opposite sex.

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Unless, of course, they happen to be gay.


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No. They simply need to prove that gay sham 'marriage' is benign to society instead of insisting that the straight community defend heterosexual marriage.

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The idea that gay couples have to somehow "prove" to the heteros that their marriage won't hurt them or society is ridiculous. How exactly are they supposed to do this? I suppose interracial couples should be forced to prove to all the racists in the world that their marriage will be benign as well?

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Why do you think it's okay to keep your child from being exposed to society? Guidance is one thing, but it seems that you want to brainwash him. No offense intended, I just don't understand why people think it is ethical to control their childrens' minds.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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It's a perversion of the natural state of affairs, and as such it weakens the social fabric in the same way polygamy and bestiality do.

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The only perversion is you calling it so. It is found in all cultures and in most species.

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So is polygamy, beastiality and sex with underage females. But society doesn't allow those.

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

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It's a perversion of the natural state of affairs, and as such it weakens the social fabric in the same way polygamy and bestiality do.

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The only perversion is you calling it so. It is found in all cultures and in most species.

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So is polygamy, beastiality and sex with underage females. But society doesn't allow those.

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You understand that just saying words doesnt demonstrate that your analogy is valid right?

"I think we should be able to watch TV past nine o'clock."

"No, thats too late, and really you should be sleeping so you can get to work tomorrow."

"Well sure, but I mean, people stay up late all the time, and they still manage to get to work, usually."

"Yeah, well people murder people all the time too, you don't think thats ok do you? Murderer."

??????

Re: Gay marriages... dictated by religious authorities
 

Thank you for making my point. I'm trying to show that HIS comments are invalid. Just because all cultures and all species do something doesn't mean it's normal or desirable behaviour. Get it?

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