Ed Miller Resigned?
 

http://elainevigneault.livejournal.com/

Admins, please respond.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

Just in case the text I linked to dissapears, this is it in its entirety:

[ QUOTE ]
2006.07.05 10.08


The rumor is spreading. So, just to clarify: Ed quit the 2+2 forums. He's no longer working on improving the site, there's just too much work to be done, with little to no help from those in charge. He resigned on Monday.

Now he has time to play more poker and work on his next book.

But I am not his spokesperson. I am just a gossip spreader, a meddler, a provocateur, a muse.

Actually, he decided to leave before I did. He's the one who came up with the idea of leaving. We talked about it a couple weeks ago. We knew Censored wanted me out and we discussed how we'd react. Honestly, I think Ed's been wanting out for a long time. He hates how they've degraded. This was just the perfect opportunity for him to take the leap.

I couldn't be mature, poised, proper like he is. I wasn't raised in the South. I had to go out guns blazing. I'm still eager to shoot, to be honest. On my way to the gym this morning I sang the Dixie Chicks "Not Ready to Make Nice" as loud as I could.

I've got to direct this energy. I need to find a new cause, a new adventure, a more worthy opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

So I have no clue who she is or what the history is here... but wow, just....wow. That's messed up.

Surf

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

All I have to say on this, is that if [censored]'s exile of Elaine from OOT, caused ED to drop his support for the 2+2 forums...

It is clear that [censored] should be permanently banned!

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So I have no clue who she is or what the history is here... but wow, just....wow. That's messed up.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

She is Ed's wife.

I was not involved or very familiar to the situation, but my understanding is [censored] permabanned Elaine from 2p2 for being a troll. The implication from the linkes post is that among the reasons for Ed's (alleged) resignation from 2p2 is Elaine's banning from 2p2.

NONE of this is confirmed, but IMO it all needs to be soon.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

Grunch you have several key facts wrong.

Fact 1 is that elaine was never banned, she was exiled from oot.
Fact 2 is that Elaine decided to leave the forums and had ed (or another admin) ban her account.
Fact 3 seems to be a problem reading. Unless elaine is lying she directly stated that ed decided to leave before elaine did.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
All I have to say on this, is that if [censored]'s exile of Elaine from OOT, caused ED to drop his support for the 2+2 forums...

It is clear that [censored] should be permanently banned!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if I agree with your conclusion but I do agree something does need to be done to rectify the situation.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
All I have to say on this, is that if [censored]'s exile of Elaine from OOT, caused ED to drop his support for the 2+2 forums...

It is clear that [censored] should be permanently banned!

[/ QUOTE ]

You and your !'s.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Grunch you have several key facts wrong.

Fact 1 is that elaine was never banned, she was exiled from oot.
Fact 2 is that Elaine decided to leave the forums and had ed (or another admin) ban her account.
Fact 3 seems to be a problem reading. Unless elaine is lying she directly stated that ed decided to leave before elaine did.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reson I'm posting this thread in the mod forum is to get the facts established.

[ QUOTE ]
Fact 3 seems to be a problem reading.

[/ QUOTE ]

Insulting me is pointless and does not validate any point you are trying to make.

I derived this conclusion from the following:

[ QUOTE ]
We knew Censored wanted me out and we discussed how we'd react.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which implies that Ed's alleged departure was in part a reaction to Elaine's exile or banning or whatever happened.

I am only asking questions. I am not stating any conclusion to be fact. I don't have any facts. I never claimed that I did.

At this point it would probably be a good idea if someone who knew the complete history of what happened with Elaine would explain it here.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

Trying to make this about [censored] and not Ed/Elaine is really goofy.

If Ed's really done with the forums, it's a big blow to any attempts at progress.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

Yes Ed resigned. He told Mason on Monday that he wasn't satisfied with his work on the forums and would prefer to focus on books and other endeavours.

Ed never spoke to me at length about any problems he had, so if he had or has any problems with me specifically, I don't know.

If you read Elaine's blog, she indicates that Ed was burnt out on the website. I don't see anything that states, nor did he state to us, that his departure was the result of Elaine's exile.

The fact is, posting on oot was clearly an unhappy experience for Elaine. Her departure is surely in her best interest. If Ed wasn't happy and wasn't passionate enough about his website presence to confront me (and this assumes he had a problem with Mason and/or myself)then his departure is also in his own best interest.

You give me Ed's royalties, I'm, not sure I wouldn't run off to France.

That's my take. Ed will remain a fantastic 2+2 author, and with time may post here again, or maybe not. But I'm sure he'll make himself accesible in one form or another to those who care about him.

And just in case you think this is all phony bs on my part, I admit that his leaving in this manner really pisses me off and that elaine pisses me off. It's just that I understand their perspective, and in their shoes might do the same.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Grunch you have several key facts wrong.

Fact 1 is that elaine was never banned, she was exiled from oot.
Fact 2 is that Elaine decided to leave the forums and had ed (or another admin) ban her account.
Fact 3 seems to be a problem reading. Unless elaine is lying she directly stated that ed decided to leave before elaine did.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reson I'm posting this thread in the mod forum is to get the facts established.

[ QUOTE ]
Fact 3 seems to be a problem reading.

[/ QUOTE ]

Insulting me is pointless and does not validate any point you are trying to make.

I derived this conclusion from the following:

[ QUOTE ]
We knew Censored wanted me out and we discussed how we'd react.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which implies that Ed's alleged departure was in part a reaction to Elaine's exile or banning or whatever happened.

I am only asking questions. I am not stating any conclusion to be fact. I don't have any facts. I never claimed that I did.

At this point it would probably be a good idea if someone who knew the complete history of what happened with Elaine would explain it here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think that this is the real major reason he decided to step down:

[ QUOTE ]
improving the site, there's just too much work to be done, with little to no help from those in charge.


[/ QUOTE ]

Btw this:
[ QUOTE ]

At this point it would probably be a good idea if someone who knew the complete history of what happened with Elaine would explain it here.


[/ QUOTE ]

Would be Censored/dids/me or Elaine/Ed.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

that 'degraded' comment could lead to some pretty bad publicity if poker journos get a sniff of this.

she really shouldn't have mentioned that side of things.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Trying to make this about [censored] and not Ed/Elaine is really goofy.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are talking directly to me, I am not making this about anything.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
He told Mason on Monday that he wasn't satisfied with his work on the forums and would prefer to focus on books and other endeavours.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the official explanation then? If we are asked why Ed left, this is what we should say?

Should there be an official announcement in the public forums before this turns in to a big [censored] storm of speculation & accusation?

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

Mason's in Disneyland right now and will probably be horrified when he sees this has gone public and elaine's blog. He'll have to address that with them if he wants upon his return this Friday.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes Ed resigned. He told Mason on Monday that he wasn't satisfied with his work on the forums and would prefer to focus on books and other endeavours.

Ed never spoke to me at length about any problems he had, so if he had or has any problems with me specifically, I don't know.

If you read Elaine's blog, she indicates that Ed was burnt out on the website. I don't see anything that states, nor did he state to us, that his departure was the result of Elaine's exile.

The fact is, posting on oot was clearly an unhappy experience for Elaine. Her departure is surely in her best interest. If Ed wasn't happy and wasn't passionate enough about his website presence to confront me (and this assumes he had a problem with Mason and/or myself)then his departure is also in his own best interest.

You give me Ed's royalties, I'm, not sure I wouldn't run off to France.

That's my take. Ed will remain a fantastic 2+2 author, and with time may post here again, or maybe not. But I'm sure he'll make himself accesible in one form or another to those who care about him.

And just in case you think this is all phony bs on my part, I admit that his leaving in this manner really pisses me off and that elaine pisses me off. It's just that I understand their perspective, and in their shoes might do the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. This is quite a shock. Is he still going to be doing the magazine? Any world on who's doing the site now?

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mason's in Disneyland right now

[/ QUOTE ]

that alone is awesome [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

I'd prefer no moderator mention this on the forums. I leave that to Ed or Mason. Of course it seems inevitable that a random poster will bring it up, but again I'd prefer that be addressed by Ed or Mason.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

Microbob is currently doing a sterling job trying to keep the rudeness to a minimum in the forum forum over this.

I just wanted to publicly thank him for the work he's currently doing there.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

Ed is going to help transition the magazine to someone else (don't know who yet). We're back to square one with new design.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd prefer no moderator mention this on the forums. I leave that to Ed or Mason. Of course it seems inevitable that a random poster will bring it up, but again I'd prefer that be addressed by Ed or Mason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mat, it's in the forum forum already, and has been a while.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

There are threads in at least ATF and OOT...

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

"At this point it would probably be a good idea if someone who knew the complete history of what happened with Elaine would explain it here."

Elaine posts on 2p2 as OtisTheMaruspial. Mostly pops in in law related threads and speaks from his/her experience as a law student. Generally disliked because of the vigor with which they support position contrary to most of 2p2 and trollish style.

At some point, I forget exactly why, astroglide outs Otis as Elaine. Much bruhaha ensuses and she's pretty livid with astro.

Elaine continues to post in OOT, often disagreeing with the masses and on occasion being slightly trollish. A lot of posters (for instance, Tony P) take an extreme dislike to her. Lots of discussion takes place as to if she's trolling, if she'd be banned if she wasn't Ed's wife, etc.

Eventually [censored], as part of his "mass culling" solicits nominations for this mass culling, basically bad oot posters that need a ban/exile. Elaine makes this list, and then in the voting stages she was far and away the leader. (note, I personally think this sucks as she's way better than a lot of oot posters).

In the end, [censored] exiles Elaine from OOT, she gets upset, makes "goodbye" post in About The Forums. Then this note shows up on her blog today I guess.

Given her approach to the forums, Elaine leaving is probably the best personal choice for her. I regret that the culture of OOT is such that I think most of the heat she caught was for daring to be a feminist in a male dominated forum.

The sad thing about Ed leaving is that as somebody who started out as a poster, I think he's got an unique and important insight into how to improve the forums. I think Mat does a great job, but the one area that's missing is that he'd made a choice not to involve himself in the forums directly, and I'm not sure how much of a feeling he has for the established culture. Hopefully that's where us mods can come in and help a bit.

WRT to the anti-[censored] ideas in this thread. IMO, [censored] 's actions are often corrent. It's more his tone/bedside manner that gets people so upset. OOT requires super aggressive moderation, but it also requires a mod who doesn't seem so confrontational/defensive and doesn't outwardly relish in the "dance monkeys dance" aspect of moderation. If [censored] is able to tone down some of that stuff, I think his day to day moderation works very well. Where I think it gets muddled is that his methods have set the standard for other OOT mods to behave in more arbitrary fashion, and those are the kinds of things that really create a mod vs. poster grudge match (or Mod Wars! for that matter).

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are threads in at least ATF and OOT...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah they need to be moved / locked / mods posts deleted etc if you don't want it out.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

I like microbob's handling of these threads. They should all be moved to his forum. Istill prefer that moderators steer away from participating in this particular discussion.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like microbob's handling of these threads. They should all be moved to his forum. Istill prefer that moderators steer away from participating in this particular discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've stopped and you are welcome to remove my posts. I responded before seeing your post about it here.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like microbob's handling of these threads. They should all be moved to his forum. Istill prefer that moderators steer away from participating in this particular discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm happy to oblige by remaining completely silent on the matter. But the news is out, and speculation will snowball if left unchecked. I just want to make sure this is understood.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

I just want it corraled by Microbob in his forum for awhile. Eventually Mason can be led there to make an official statement. One thing is clear: Elaine was never going to be happy with OOT. If her unhappiness made Ed leave, it was inevitable.

On the other hand, I believe it was inevitable anyway. Ed all of a sudden has a lot of money, as Elaine said. Given that, very few people would feel motivated to continue here if it wasn't super enjoyable, and I never got the impression that his work here on the forums could be described that way.

This is how I see it, but I won't post it publicly. Mason or Ed should be the one.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
At some point, I forget exactly why, astroglide outs Otis as Elaine. Much bruhaha ensuses and she's pretty livid with astro.

[/ QUOTE ]

For a while, she was posting under a Mrs.NPA account and Otis concurrently. I'm not exactly sure when or why she switched to ElaineMonster. Anyway, Otis made a post in OOT that she was quitting this account in favor of another account she had been using, stirring up much bruhaha and speculation, as well as mixed feelings about Otis being gone, but not really. Commodus figured out her identity and reported to Astro.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

That's right, essentially the argument for outing Otis was that he/she (I forget if Otis was supposed to be a guy or not) asked for it with their farewell post.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's right, essentially the argument for outing Otis was that he/she (I forget if Otis was supposed to be a guy or not) asked for it with their farewell post.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is also why elaine's account is currently perma banned, right? Becasue she asked for it?

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's right, essentially the argument for outing Otis was that he/she (I forget if Otis was supposed to be a guy or not) asked for it with their farewell post.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is also why elaine's account is currently perma banned, right? Becasue she asked for it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Grunch,

Elaine's account is banned because she had Ed go in and ban it. no other reason.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

I edited this post from its original form because I thought more about how I feel and some of my thoughts have clarified a bit. Just a heads-up to anyone who read both versions.

*******

Hi all,

Elaine is very mad, and what she says on her blog is what she says, not what I say. Not that I disagree with her totally or anything... just that we're two different people with two different perspectives.

I decided to step down for a couple reasons:

1. I was feeling crushed in general and decided I needed to spend more time working on the books and playing poker again. I haven't played poker much since I wrote SSHE two and a half years ago, and frankly I was feeling like a bit out of touch, writing about a game I didn't much play. I'm going to go back to what I got into poker for... playing and writing books.

2. Participating in the forums has become a major sap on my life. I used to enjoy it, but now I don't. It has made me very depressed over the last six months or so, and it eats a lot of my time. It's invaded my personal life in a way that's just not ok with me.

Just so it's clear, Elaine didn't in any way precipitate this decision. Based on the culture here, I know there will be rumors floating that demonize Elaine and paint her as a villan, but you all should know that those rumors will be 100% baseless and will bear no relation to what actually happened. Elaine never even hinted that I should make this decision.

It's one I made on my own. In fact, while Elaine and I had discussed the idea of me concentrating on books and playing before, I didn't even tell Elaine about my meeting with Mason until after the fact.

The blow-up over the weekend was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, but I already knew that I wanted to make this decision, and mostly the only question was when.

This is not a protest on my part. This is a decision that's been on my mind for months now... a quality of life decision for me and Elaine.

And to be honest, I have no idea how to run a forum or build a community or whatever. I don't think I "know better" about how 2+2 should be run... in fact, that's quite it... I feel like books and playing are my areas of expertise, and I feel I strayed from my core competencies by dabbling in the forum, and I think that was an error. I got a little egoistic thinking I could save the world, so to speak, and then I realized that I was in over my head. So I made a difficult for me, but ultimately I think very positive for everyone, decision.

Having said that, I am very uncomfortable with some of the content on the forum... and much of it is the same content Elaine is uncomfortable with. This content, as well as the general tone and culture here, is largely what has gotten me down on participating. Frankly, I don't enjoy wading through misogyny, discussions of violence, graphic videos, and teems of know-it-all 19-year-old pricks with nasty quips and one-liners. It's not just in OOT... this culture permeates the forum these days. It makes me depressed.

I bear absolutely no ill-will toward Mason or Mat or anyone at 2+2. Overall my experience with 2+2 has been excellent, and I look forward to continue writing excellent books for 2+2. I hope everyone understands where I'm coming from.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

Ed,

Thank you for explaining this here. You certianly didn't have to explain everything you did. I, for one, very much appreciate your candor and your openness on the reasons for your departure.

Since you are here, I'd just like to personally thank you for everything you've done for 2p2 in general, and me personally as a poker player. I started at 2p2 before SSH came out, and your classic MK posts contributed a great deal as my development as a limit player.

Having long since transitioned to being a full time no-limit player, I looked forward to your book more than any book before. It did not dissapoint. I similarly look forward to the book yopu are currently working on.

Whatever the reasons are for your departure from 2p2, you have my respect and my thanks. If the sole reason for your departure was to stand side-by-side with your wife, for that alone I'd back you up 100%. As a married man, I know nothing is more important. Nothing.

If I ever do meet you, I'll buy you a beer.

Thanks for everything, take care & good luck.

- John

PS - Nothing you've said here will be shared by me outside this forum.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

Thanks Ed, for everything.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Ed, for everything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. Sorry to see you go. We'll miss you.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

Thanks Ed, for clarifying.

Re: Ed Miller Resigned?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Ed, for everything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. Sorry to see you go. We'll miss you.

[/ QUOTE ]