Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

Okay, so yesterday is Day 1 of the #8 event (Omaha 8 or Better) and early on in the tournament I have something like A23x with a suited ace. Flop is something like 944 giving me a (nearly) uncounterfeitable low draw and a nut flush draw, flush hits on turn and low hits on river.

We go to showdown, I declare "nut low, nut flush." Player to my right throws his cards on the table, face up, and declares "trip 4s." Now, he has a 9 in his hand as well for the flopped boat, but he clearly didn't have it as he wasn't betting aggressively and didn't take any of the pot. He pushes his cards to the dealer who procedes to push me the pot and begins shuffle the cards (on the table, not riffling yet).

Now, AFTER I have all the chips stacked up and by me, player 2 seats to my right says "You didn't have trips, you had a full house." I knew he had the full house, but did not say anything as it is not my responsibility, and the dealer missed it. Villian says "No I didn't, I had 49TJ and there was only a 4 on the board" while 2 to my right says "No, there was a 9 on the flop."

Now, this is after I have all the chips in front of me in neat stacks, so this has been a little while after the hand was showndown. Villian obviously wants his chips, but I say "Well I've already raked the pot, it's too late to change now." Dealer calls the floor, who asks the table to confirm or deny the hand and 2 to the right along with 1 other player say yes, there was a 9 on the flop. Naturally I know this is the case so I re-create the betting and give him his chips as per the Floor's request.

My question is: What's the official ruling on this? As I understand it it's the dealer's responsibility to call hands at showdown, and once chips are raked and cards are starting to shuffle it is too late to change anything. Clearly both the player and dealer (and maybe me?) were at fault on this. It was only 200 chips in Level 1, but I was still a little confused as to the Floor's decision.

So what's the deal? This year seems to have had quite a few floor/dealer problems...

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

If you found a wallet, would you look for the license?

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

I knew I would get response(s) like this. It is not my job to call the pot. The player called his hand, the dealer pushed me all the chips. The question is about the ruling by floor.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

Even if the dealer makes a mistake, the floor can reverse things. The floor was correct.

Ken

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

If the player properly tabled his hand, he should get the pot. Unless the cards or the board were mucked so that it is impossible to say for certain who won, I think it is completely reasonable to recreate the hand to get the right outcome. Especially in such a high-stakes tournament as this.

Really, you should have let the guy know what he had. Poker players don't have to be jerks.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

Just to clarify, at the time this happened all the cards were face-down, after the dealer turned them over.

And I wasn't being a jerk in my mind, I don't think I said anything at that table the entire time other than calling my hands, if he misreads it that's his fault IMO.

I also wonder how many people mucked winners at show down in this event, as I'm sure it happened with some of the players I saw... I swear one guy called out a flush when there were 2 on the board and 3 in his hand... Of course he didn't win anything with that "flush," but...

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

There's no low draw on 944 anyway; even if that's not the exact hand I'm not sure how you made the same mistake repeatedly when describing the hand throughout the post.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's no low draw on 944 anyway; even if that's not the exact hand I'm not sure how you made the same mistake repeatedly when describing the hand throughout the post.

[/ QUOTE ]

He probably meant "backdoor" low draw.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

Obviously this is the case...

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

Right was done, case closed.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

Cards speak.

If the guy mucks his hand, then it's yours. If he tables his hand, then it plays.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's no low draw on 944 anyway; even if that's not the exact hand I'm not sure how you made the same mistake repeatedly when describing the hand throughout the post.

[/ QUOTE ]


i guess they were playing omaha 9 or better

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

I think I'm the only one who agrees w/ the OP here. You got shafted.

1)Pot was already pushed with cards mucked.

2)Tell Seat 2 to STFU!?!?! One to a goddam hand.

3)The just thing to do WOULD be to send the full house his half the pot, but I say F him. He's playing in a $2k event and doesn't even know what's going on???


And again, Seat 2 is a real jerkoff. You don't open your mouth in a pot that doesn't involve you.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you found a wallet, would you look for the license?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only after he removes the cash.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

One player to a hand only applies during the hand. It is every player at the tables responsibility to make sure everything is done fairly. If you were in a 3 handed game at the final table and one player was pushed a hand that gave him a huge chip lead wouldn't you say something? Of course...

Now I agree the dealer should have been better, the player should not have been so dumb, and I probably wouldn't have spoken up either. But I think the ruling was the fairest it could be in that case.

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm the only one who agrees w/ the OP here. You got shafted.

1)Pot was already pushed with cards mucked.

2)Tell Seat 2 to STFU!?!?! One to a goddam hand.

3)The just thing to do WOULD be to send the full house his half the pot, but I say F him. He's playing in a $2k event and doesn't even know what's going on???


And again, Seat 2 is a real jerkoff. You don't open your mouth in a pot that doesn't involve you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm the only one who agrees w/ the OP here. You got shafted.

1)Pot was already pushed with cards mucked.

2)Tell Seat 2 to STFU!?!?! One to a goddam hand.

3)The just thing to do WOULD be to send the full house his half the pot, but I say F him. He's playing in a $2k event and doesn't even know what's going on???


And again, Seat 2 is a real jerkoff. You don't open your mouth in a pot that doesn't involve you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly INCORRECT. When a hand is tabled, it is everyone's or anyone's responsibility to make sure it is correctly read, and this goes DOUBLE for a tournament.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

Whatever the floor decides, you have to respect it. It states it in the "poker room rules" that are posted which everyone should read (insert sarcasm here).

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

You are a cheater and an a$$. Cards speak and you saw it. You lied on purpose to win T200. Why even bother posting here, you know what kind of answers you are going to see.

Most posters here are in favor of playing by the rules to encourage a fair game. You sir clearly are not so you suck.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

Yeah, if the guy tabled all four of his cards, it doesn't matter what he announced or what the dealer thought -- cards speak.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

[ QUOTE ]
I knew he had the full house, but did not say anything as it is not my responsibility, and the dealer missed it.

...Dealer calls the floor, who asks the table to confirm or deny the hand and 2 to the right along with 1 other player say yes, there was a 9 on the flop. Naturally I know this is the case

[/ QUOTE ]

You are scum. I assume you did not cash in the event. Which means, you got exactly what you deserve.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

I think floor made correct decision even though it's too bad you lost - FWIW very similar thing happened to a guy at my table in a live 1-2 cash game at Caesars with a huge pot - guy went ballistic after the floor ruled against him and for the guy that didn't realize that he had made a better hand that the guy who was basically in your position

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

I am sure there were many winners mucked due to either retarded players or dealers, but as one person replied, what are you doing playing in a 2000 dollar event if you don't know how to read your hand, for the same matter what are you doing dealing the event if you can't read a hand?
Also, explain where the nut low draw is on a 944 board? Just curious, at first I gave you the benifit of the doubt, but now I wonder, aren't you the guy who's budy couldnt find his chips in the shorthanded event? I want some of whatever you two are smoking.....

For the record, I'm not tryin to be a prick, just trying to point out some things that make it difficult for me to believe everything that is written....

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

WarDekar, allow me to apologize for my last post, it is becoming very clear to me that the levels of incompitence (sp?) are very high this year, from the players to the dealers to the floor and cage, this is not to say that there are not people with high levels of expertise in each capacity, but the dunderheads seem to be making their peers look bad, obv with over 1000 people working the event, they are not all going to be the sharpest knives in the drawer. This being said, I think that the people who are above the novice level and below the expert level are the ones who are going to suffer the most. It is my opinion that people should be disciplined based on the severity of their infraction (ie. Floor from the Short Handed event should be fired). The experts are smart enough to watch out for themselves, the rookies/novices don't have a clue and will be actively looking for guidance, and the slighty above average players will be busy trying to look like they know what they are doing/flying under the radar so to speak, and thus the most exploitable due to errors made in regards to rulings etc....

Its a jungle out there, good luck and watch your back

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

[ QUOTE ]
Its a jungle out there, good luck and watch your back

[/ QUOTE ]

This quote is even more true, knowing that players like WarDeKar are out there...

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

In a word... You got HOSED!!! It is not the responsiblity of the players to call the hands. It's the dealers responsiblity to read the hands correctly. I can't believe that the other player was that stupid and he shouldn't be rewarded for that stupidity. The floor ruling was incorrect. Once the cards are mucked the hand is over. The initial ruling should have stood. Sorry about that. If you lose this tourney... it was because of the incomptence of the dealers and the floor personal.

Donna [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

I'm surprised that the interpretation of the "Cards Speak" rule, is that cards speak if they are properly called by the player and no one can intervene.

I think the ruling was made perfectly with the integrity of the game in mind.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

[ QUOTE ]
And again, Seat 2 is a real jerkoff. You don't open your mouth in a pot that doesn't involve you.

[/ QUOTE ]

People like you are the reason why live poker sucks.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

[ QUOTE ]
Once the cards are mucked the hand is over.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is in error. From Robert's Rules of Poker:

[ QUOTE ]
Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management's discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not giving a pot to an angle-shooter who doesn't deserve it is in the best interest of the game.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And again, Seat 2 is a real jerkoff. You don't open your mouth in a pot that doesn't involve you.

[/ QUOTE ]

People like you are the reason why live poker sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the few times where I wholly welcome other players speaking up even when not in a hand. I won't lie, I've misread hands before, it happens. It happens even more in LO8 on boards like AA237 when four people table their hands and say nothing.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

tom10167,

just to clarify, i think its pretty obvious the OP should have spoken up, or at least not get mad at seat 2 for speaking up. Million$$$Man is the kind of person that makes live poker miserable for me.

One time playing live I spoke up as a face up winner was about to be mucked and forgotten, and the guy who the pot was almost pushed to gave me death stares for the next 3 hours. What a [censored] sick jerk.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When a hand is tabled, it is everyone's or anyone's responsibility to make sure it is correctly read,

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct. However it would be nice if the guy
said something when he saw the dealer was going to muck
the winning hand. Not after the chips are stacked and
the dealer is shuffling the next hand. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm the only one who agrees w/ the OP here. You got shafted.

1)Pot was already pushed with cards mucked.

2)Tell Seat 2 to STFU!?!?! One to a goddam hand.

3)The just thing to do WOULD be to send the full house his half the pot, but I say F him. He's playing in a $2k event and doesn't even know what's going on???


And again, Seat 2 is a real jerkoff. You don't open your mouth in a pot that doesn't involve you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Hes playing in a WSOP event and can't even read the board? What happens if you say that there wasn't a FH on the board when the floor comes over?

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm the only one who agrees w/ the OP here. You got shafted.

1)Pot was already pushed with cards mucked.

2)Tell Seat 2 to STFU!?!?! One to a goddam hand.

3)The just thing to do WOULD be to send the full house his half the pot, but I say F him. He's playing in a $2k event and doesn't even know what's going on???


And again, Seat 2 is a real jerkoff. You don't open your mouth in a pot that doesn't involve you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly INCORRECT. When a hand is tabled, it is everyone's or anyone's responsibility to make sure it is correctly read, and this goes DOUBLE for a tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is everyone's responsibility DURING THE SHOWDOWN. After the hand has been mucked, I think it is a closed issue.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are a cheater and an a$$. Cards speak and you saw it. You lied on purpose to win T200. Why even bother posting here, you know what kind of answers you are going to see.

Most posters here are in favor of playing by the rules to encourage a fair game. You sir clearly are not so you suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would like a basketball player stealing the ball, the ref not calling a foul on the play, and then the player stopping play and demanding that the ball be given back and free throws shot because he really did foul him on the steal. Its not your responsibility- its the official's(dealer's).

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

WarDekar,
I think you handled yourself fine, as did the floor. Obviously, the dealer is the real villain here and your opponent is no great genius either.

The floorman's overriding responsibility to preserve the integrity of the game. In this case, the players' cards were properly tabled (it doesn't matter what he says), and the dealer made an error and pushed the pot to the wrong player.

By polling other players, the floor is doing his best to determine whether an overturnable error was made. You are under no ethical obligation to point out the error when it occurs, but if asked, it would be unethical to lie.

Once the floor determines that the dealer made a simple error in fact (so long as no hands have been played in the interim), he is right to correct it. You are correct to assist him by recreating the betting sequence and handing over the chips without fuss.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised that the interpretation of the "Cards Speak" rule, is that cards speak if they are properly called by the player and no one can intervene.

I think the ruling was made perfectly with the integrity of the game in mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing the point here...other players are welcome to intervene during the showdown. But if everyone misses it and its mucked, then its a dead issue imo.

I agree with the poster who said that the floor decision should be respected, and I do respect it. And since thats their decision, I wouldn't hold it against them in any way. However, I do personally think that it was the wrong decision.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are a cheater and an a$$. Cards speak and you saw it. You lied on purpose to win T200. Why even bother posting here, you know what kind of answers you are going to see.

Most posters here are in favor of playing by the rules to encourage a fair game. You sir clearly are not so you suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would like a basketball player stealing the ball, the ref not calling a foul on the play, and then the player stopping play and demanding that the ball be given back and free throws shot because he really did foul him on the steal. Its not your responsibility- its the official's(dealer's).

[/ QUOTE ]

This opinion is so dangerous it's scary. It harms the integrity of the game. It is EVERYONE'S job to make sure once a hand is tabled that the best hand get's the pot, no questions.
If the older man would've mucked his hand saying "eh all I had were three 4s with a nine" then it's 100% his fault and he get's nothing but as soon as he tables his hand it's your job to say "Don't push that at me it's not my pot" painful as it may be.

Cody

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

[ QUOTE ]
...You are under no ethical obligation to point out the error when it occurs, but if asked, it would be unethical to lie...


[/ QUOTE ]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!! Yes you are, it's your job to push the pot away and give it to the player. Cards Speak doesn't mean "if you call it correctly" it mean's the cards determine who wins regardless of what comes out of your mouth.
Once the guy tabled his hand, he gets half the pot, no question.
Once you stack the chips however, it's over, and you pay the poker gods later for angle shooting.

Cody

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

Isn't anyone bothered by someone who was not at the table awarding a pot without seeing the cards? What's to stop the player and two other guys around him from conspiring to pull a stunt illegitimately? While I certainly agree with the "cards speak" sentiment, and am pretty sure I'd speak up myself if I was the OP, once the cards are gone and the pot pushed I've got serious concerns about a floorperson changing anything.

Re: Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event
 

all you people saying OP is scum are idiots. like the basketball analogy, it's like a player got a call in his favor and didn't say anything about it. no one should talk about what he should've done in that situation, because you haven't been there. it's easy to point a moral finger at someone at a distance, but you can't judge someone in the heat of the moment (ie a big tournament)