the state of the forum
 

I'm writing this off the top of my head, so take that into consideration.

As some of you may remember from the multiple threads on the OOT split, I was, for better or worse, at the center of much of the battle, and while I won't bother bringing up the specifics of that whole mess, suffice it to say that in some ways I consider myself to be one of the architects of the forum (along w/ several others like db, dom, blarg, el d, etc).

That being said, this is not the forum I envisioned.

The idea, as I understood it, was to create a place where long-form discussion, the type that was easily buried in OOT, had a place to flourish, where nuances could be explored and the obscure could have a place to find an audience. I saw a place where a discussion of the French New Wave would be next to an exhaustive study of different types of whiskey and small details from TV serials and alt.country albums and the like. There may only be 5 or 6 active posts, but they would be 5 or 6 really good active posts, and all other rubbish would be shipped to OOT.

What we've got instead is polls about movie trilogies and trip reports about board games and multiple posts in multiple threads that just name things. Everyone likes the same pizza toppings. Horay. Hell, we've even got a thread on Thai food that's running concurrently in OOT. Why? I haven't a clue.

What happens with all these polls and lists and nomination threads is it does exactly what OOT does to long-form discussion: it stiffles it. It creates a mentality where to the average poster, TL;DR is no different from OOT, only smaller. You get the exact same replies as over there, just fewer of them. The lists all end up being the same 10 movies that everyone's seen (favorite movie musical number?: uh, well I really like the dance scene in Pulp Fiction...) and doesn't do anything to create content, it's just clutter.

We've had some good threads. I thought El D's film lecture thread showed promise, as did Boro's film still quiz (although, that may be a bit borderline OOT. Still, it worked), and the QT plagarism discussion. We can do much better though. Put some thought into theads and posts. Regardless of what the FAQ says, I'm going to encourage people to do list and polls in OOT. I couldn't care less about the dramabomb that created this change. Some of us put forth a bit of effort and risked our good names (Blarg, for example, went out on a limb defending me when I was unable, and for that I'm thankful) to create this forum. To simply turn it into something different simply because of some petty politics is pretty lame.

And I realize that part of the problem is that I haven't really been creating any long-form content. I got myself over-extended with an on-going move, and I don't tend to review many of the summer movies, because I don't find them interesting. But, I've got a couple of half-written things that I should get a chance to finish in the near future.

It's also possible that the 2p2 community isn't mature enough to fully support a forum like TL;DR minus all the noise, but I highly doubt it. There's just too many intelligent people around here.

I'll probably come up with more ideas as people reply.

Oh, and this is nothing against diebitter, who I consider to be a friend. I think the forum was going in the wrong direction before he made the change.

Re: the state of the forum
 

I feel that too much micromanagement into the content of a forum is never going to produce the best results. It is ok to establish general guidelines for a forum, broad lines in which you can paint under, but too much regulation causes stagnation.

Let the forum mature on it's own. Allow the posters to decide which topics should rise to the top and which drift to the bottom due to lack of interest. Just because the forum doesn't match your expectations doesn't mean it isn't great in it's own right.

Re: the state of the forum
 

Cliff Notes: Welcome to TL;DR (OOT2).

Re: the state of the forum
 

I agree, Pryor...I like the long-form discussions that this forum was meant to foster.

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
I feel that too much micromanagement into the content of a forum is never going to produce the best results. It is ok to establish general guidelines for a forum, broad lines in which you can paint under, but too much regulation causes stagnation.

Let the forum mature on it's own. Allow the posters to decide which topics should rise to the top and which drift to the bottom due to lack of interest. Just because the forum doesn't match your expectations doesn't mean it isn't great in it's own right.

[/ QUOTE ]

also a valid point. call me wishy-washy!

Re: the state of the forum
 

hi Pryor,


[ QUOTE ]
I saw a place where a discussion of the French New Wave would be next to an exhaustive study of different types of whiskey and small details from TV serials and alt.country albums and the like. There may only be 5 or 6 active posts, but they would be 5 or 6 really good active posts, and all other rubbish would be shipped to OOT.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good post. I like the sound of this and how you envisioned the forum. As I tried to say in my other post, I am in agreement on the subject of list-type threads. I think they are boring. My feeling is that we could have a number of topics in this forum as long as the OP was worded in such a way as to promote quality discussion. The rule should be that the OP meet a certain standard of content (whether talking about ancient battles, food, or TV actors) and replies make an attempt to contribute something more than just 'ditto' or 'you're retarded'.

I think that it would not be so hard for DB to steer the thread in the right direction with some gentle admonishment or creative questioning on his part. Given certain guidelines I think the forum will find it's rhythm and be very good.

Re: the state of the forum
 

pryor,

This is what happens when diebitter begs and begs for an A&E forum and is handed one with another name.

Re: the state of the forum
 

i don't see why the lists and such aren't just moved to OOT. if it isn't long-form, or thereabouts, then just move it. that isn't micro-managing, it's just common sense.

thanks katy and dom

Re: the state of the forum
 

great post pryor. There have been some great threads in here as borodog's film club threards have generally been pretty good. It's obvious what ElD is doing with his pizza toping thread and I agree with his point in light of what this forum has become. Things are going to get weird with all of the OOT castoffs and in many ways that doesn't help the situation. This thread is at the right time IMO as so this forum can get back to its original purpose

Re: the state of the forum
 

the fact that we've inherited an OOT troll who was banned is a bad sign, kdawg

dids,

still, the posters as a whole haven't exactly been embracing the spirit of the forum.

these OOT castoffs can only make things worse.

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
the fact that we've inherited an OOT troll who was banned is a bad sign, kdawg

dids,

still, the posters as a whole haven't exactly been embracing the spirit of the forum.

these OOT castoffs can only make things worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pryor,

I think that points to the fact that this forum wasn't a very good idea. At first I thought it was working, but more and more it seems like things are breaking down.

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
What we've got instead is polls about movie trilogies and trip reports about board games and multiple posts in multiple threads that just name things. Everyone likes the same pizza toppings. Horay. Hell, we've even got a thread on Thai food that's running concurrently in OOT. Why? I haven't a clue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Half of the threads you mentioned were made to make a statement.

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm writing this off the top of my head, so take that into consideration.

As some of you may remember from the multiple threads on the OOT split, I was, for better or worse, at the center of much of the battle, and while I won't bother bringing up the specifics of that whole mess, suffice it to say that in some ways I consider myself to be one of the architects of the forum (along w/ several others like db, dom, blarg, el d, etc).

That being said, this is not the forum I envisioned.

The idea, as I understood it, was to create a place where long-form discussion, the type that was easily buried in OOT, had a place to flourish, where nuances could be explored and the obscure could have a place to find an audience. I saw a place where a discussion of the French New Wave would be next to an exhaustive study of different types of whiskey and small details from TV serials and alt.country albums and the like. There may only be 5 or 6 active posts, but they would be 5 or 6 really good active posts, and all other rubbish would be shipped to OOT.

What we've got instead is polls about movie trilogies and trip reports about board games and multiple posts in multiple threads that just name things. Everyone likes the same pizza toppings. Horay. Hell, we've even got a thread on Thai food that's running concurrently in OOT. Why? I haven't a clue.

What happens with all these polls and lists and nomination threads is it does exactly what OOT does to long-form discussion: it stiffles it. It creates a mentality where to the average poster, TL;DR is no different from OOT, only smaller. You get the exact same replies as over there, just fewer of them. The lists all end up being the same 10 movies that everyone's seen (favorite movie musical number?: uh, well I really like the dance scene in Pulp Fiction...) and doesn't do anything to create content, it's just clutter.

We've had some good threads. I thought El D's film lecture thread showed promise, as did Boro's film still quiz (although, that may be a bit borderline OOT. Still, it worked), and the QT plagarism discussion. We can do much better though. Put some thought into theads and posts. Regardless of what the FAQ says, I'm going to encourage people to do list and polls in OOT. I couldn't care less about the dramabomb that created this change. Some of us put forth a bit of effort and risked our good names (Blarg, for example, went out on a limb defending me when I was unable, and for that I'm thankful) to create this forum. To simply turn it into something different simply because of some petty politics is pretty lame.

And I realize that part of the problem is that I haven't really been creating any long-form content. I got myself over-extended with an on-going move, and I don't tend to review many of the summer movies, because I don't find them interesting. But, I've got a couple of half-written things that I should get a chance to finish in the near future.

It's also possible that the 2p2 community isn't mature enough to fully support a forum like TL;DR minus all the noise, but I highly doubt it. There's just too many intelligent people around here.

I'll probably come up with more ideas as people reply.

Oh, and this is nothing against diebitter, who I consider to be a friend. I think the forum was going in the wrong direction before he made the change.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you are seeing that diebitter didn't really want an A&E forum, he wanted "his own" forum.

Re: the state of the forum
 

i think it's interesting that the boring and trivial pizza toppings thread was left on here while my (admittedly tame) attempt at a wine thread was moved to oot where a bunch of 14 year olds could look at it and say "what's wine?"

Re: the state of the forum
 

pryor,

I've mentioned it in some of the OOT threads, in some here, and in PMs to diebitter. I wholeheartedly agree with you.

The concept for the LoL/OOT/TL:DR divisions was one with a lot of potential, and if the OOT Culling results in OOT1/OOT2/OOT3, then it will be pretty disappointing.

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]


That being said, this is not the forum I envisioned.



[/ QUOTE ]

As Yogi Berra said, if people don't want to come out to the ball game, you can't stop them.

You can't force people to sit down and have an interesting conversation. Frankly, it would probably be easier to find the forum you envisioned elsewhere than to try to create it here, starting from a blank slate.

Despite strong evidence to the contrary in OT in general and in OOT in particular, this is a poker forum. Walk into any card room in the country, preferably one that allows 18 year olds, and and look around. That's your core constituency here for exploring nuances. Good luck.

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What we've got instead is polls about movie trilogies and trip reports about board games and multiple posts in multiple threads that just name things. Everyone likes the same pizza toppings. Horay. Hell, we've even got a thread on Thai food that's running concurrently in OOT. Why? I haven't a clue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Half of the threads you mentioned were made to make a statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

i get that, those were just the ones i could remember

Re: the state of the forum
 

Pryor-

I feel bad and sort of guilty. Perhaps if I would have just banned AK, this wouldn't have been such an issue.

Sorry about that one, I was trying to be more reasonable

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
pryor,

I've mentioned it in some of the OOT threads, in some here, and in PMs to diebitter. I wholeheartedly agree with you.

The concept for the LoL/OOT/TL:DR divisions was one with a lot of potential, and if the OOT Culling results in OOT1/OOT2/OOT3, then it will be pretty disappointing.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think there's a ton of potential if we remind people that the focus isn't a list of topics that are acceptable, but way of discussing them.

your problems with Lost thread is an example of the kind of stuff that could be happening around here with regularity.

mike,

i assume the wine thread was moved b/c of Wookie's playground, but i'm not sure why it couldn't have just stayed.

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pryor-

I feel bad and sort of guilty. Perhaps if I would have just banned AK, this wouldn't have been such an issue.

Sorry about that one, I was trying to be more reasonable

[/ QUOTE ]

isn't he just one of Dead's accounts?

anyway, i was probably gonna write this anyway.

Re: the state of the forum
 

Respectfully, shouldnt this discussion be in the a different forum?

Why bring more discord into an already nasty situation?

Re: the state of the forum
 

I think all lists should be abandoned permanently.

If you want to discuss great movie scenes, you should have to explain why the scene is great.

Food Threads from now on should require a recipe or indepth discussion. Pizza topping is a perfect example of a thread which should be locked quickly as possible.

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]

Food Threads from now on should require a recipe or indepth discussion. Pizza topping is a perfect example of a thread which should be locked quickly as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

seems like a perfect OOT thread to me.

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
Respectfully, shouldnt this discussion be in the a different forum?

Why bring more discord into an already nasty situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

errr...perhaps. i thought about the forums section, but figured people might not go over there and this only concerned tl;dr.

again, i'm not trying to hurt any feelings or name names or anything, just get this forum back to what it was originally intended to be.

Re: the state of the forum
 

Pryor,

Can you lock threads? If so, you are a smart guy, just stary locking every thread in here that you think sucks.

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
Food Threads from now on should require a recipe or indepth discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the few things I agree with you on. This and Saturday Night Fever.

Re: the state of the forum
 

oh ya, forgot about Utah. sorry about that one as well Zoners

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pryor,

Can you lock threads? If so, you are a smart guy, just stary locking every thread in here that you think sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Quit discussing the naming/management/rules of the forum to death and just clean it up.

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
again, i'm not trying to hurt any feelings or name names or anything, just get this forum back to what it was originally intended to be.

[/ QUOTE ]I loved the idea of the original forum and I think there can be some awesome discussions here. Personally, I tried to bring some more interest into the sushi discussion.

However, for some there is no longer a choice between posting in OOT and tl;dr given the actions of the OOT Overlord and the mean spiritedness instilled. A change here was 100% predictable.

I would hate to see this turn into OOT2. However, I dont have a problem with it loosening up a bit.

I dont even like commenting on this topic here because it brings in negativity. However, this is where the thread currently exists.

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pryor,

Can you lock threads? If so, you are a smart guy, just stary locking every thread in here that you think sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

sadly, no. but of the first 10 threads...

the state of the forum...that pryor guy's a bastard [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Swimming Pool: the movie...maybe a bit more in the OP, but it has potential

Favorite Thai dish...this is a duplicate thread.

Favorite Pizza topping...OOT

Bernard Pivot #1...OOT

Sushi Poll...OOT

Bernard Pivot #5...OOT

Best Hikes, what's your list...list in the title, but a keeper

trip report: my awesome fun...OOT

best movie trilogy of all time...OOT

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
oh ya, forgot about Utah. sorry about that one as well Zoners

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah that's okay. No need to apologize. We like Utah. We'll keep Utah if you keep bison. Deal?

Re: the state of the forum
 

Pryor, DB

please leave OOT out of this discussion, if these threads don't fit with TQZ then locking/ deleting would be best in all but the most obvious and accidental examples.

Re: the state of the forum
 

pryor,

I made a similar post to yours a couple of weeks ago. However, db decided he wanted to go in another direction with this forum and create OOT2, so I am supporting his decision on that.

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pryor, DB

please leave OOT out of this discussion, if these threads don't fit with TQZ then locking/ deleting would be best in all but the most obvious and accidental examples.

[/ QUOTE ]

wouldn't a thread about pizza toppings be perfect for OOT?

Re: the state of the forum
 

pryor,

What are you talking about? db has specifically made a call for those types of posts in this forum and has specifically invited posters exiled from OOT to come to TQZ and post whatever they would have posted in OOT here instead. The threads and posters you seem to have a problem with are not only accepted here, but are openly welcomed.

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
pryor,

What are you talking about? db has specifically made a call for those types of posts in this forum and has specifically invited posters exiled from OOT to come to TQZ and post whatever they would have posted in OOT here instead. The threads and posters you seem to have a problem with are not only accepted here, but are openly welcomed.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, that's the part i'm not thrilled about. the point of the forum wasn't supposed to be a safe haven for people who don't like [censored], as you know. the intention was a forum where "content is king" and long-form discussion is the order of the day. all i'm saying is we need to get back to our roots, regardless of what's going on in other forums.

Re: the state of the forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think all lists should be abandoned permanently.

If you want to discuss great movie scenes, you should have to explain why the scene is great.

Food Threads from now on should require a recipe or indepth discussion. Pizza topping is a perfect example of a thread which should be locked quickly as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beat me to it. I think it all falls on the OP of threads, it needs be explained that not just to state a film, but why you liked it in particular, people could then either choose to disagree and then a debate/conversation would ensue which is the intent of the forum.

Re: the state of the forum
 

Agreed, pryor. I don't post much in OOT or tl;dr, but I do read occasionally - the noise in OOT makes it difficult to read anything interesting. For a few weeks this place was kind of a literary/film/philosophy kind of forum with interesting, longer discussions.

But, I think for this forum to get seriously off the ground, there's going to have to be people willing to contribute that kind of content and start the ball rolling. I was going to start a thread on 8 1/2, for example, but I had no idea what I'd say and that thread had probably been done in OOT a while ago.

Re: the state of the forum
 

Pryor your post is well reasoned and as others have said - why there was a split of OOT in the first place. You should take this up with DB as his new sticky runs highly contrary to what you have just stated. DB's obvious intentions are to derail what [censored] has done in OOT by banning certain posters, but seriously you obviously don't want someone like AK here either.

and no reason you guys cannot ban bad posters as well. maybe then DB won't feel the need to open his arms to the new recruits.

Re: the state of the forum
 

el d,

If you bury the whole of 2+2 in a mountain of irony and scheudenfraude who will be left to revere you as unto a god?