Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

Simple question that has many facets for discussion... the past 4 champions were all unknowns before their WSOP win. In what order do you respect the four as poker players given what we have seen of each, and why?

Robert Varkonyi (2002)
Chris Moneymaker (2003)
Greg Raymer (2004)
Joseph Hachem (2005)

This discussion was meant before the NLSH final table today, so try to pretend Hachem didn't win just incase he does. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

Raymer, not close.

Oops, see you want a rank ordering: Raymer, Hachem, Money, Varkoyni.

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

Raymer, Hachem. Large gap. Fill in your name here. Moneymaker & Varkoyni hard to judge between-- we see more of moneymaker's play, so have more to criticize; Varkonyi didn't try to hit the pro circuit, so he's still unknown. I'll guess Money better by now.

-Curtis

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

I think that the order is correct, GR,JH,CM,then RV
BUT.... I have much respect for Hachem because he ponied up the 10k out of his earlier WSOP cash....
I think that this question should be posed after this WSOP, so we can accurately judge Joe's "victory lap/ title defense"

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

Raymer- As good as anyone in a big torny.
Hachem- Way above average
Moneymaker- Pretty sure he wouldnt be huge favourite against anyone that posts here
Varkonyi- I had to look up for the spelling of this guys name, i think that sums it up

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

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Raymer, not close.

Oops, see you want a rank ordering: Raymer, Hachem, Money, Varkoyni.

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Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

Raymer, Hachem, Moneymaker, Varkoni.

Although, Raymer wasn't really an unknown to this board as he was a pretty regular contributor.

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

in order from best to worst

greg, joseph, chris, rob

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

I have some respect for Rob for not going pro, there is no reason to go pro just because you luckboxed one tournament, also I don't know much about Hachem

Raymer, Hachem/Rob, Moneymaker

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

Pretty well agreed upon w/ Raymer then Hachem. Then Rob, then Money.

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

And I think it needs to be noted the gap between Hachem and then Rob/Money is a lot bigger than any gap on the list.

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

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Raymer, Hachem. Large gap. Fill in your name here. Moneymaker & Varkoyni

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Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

Raymer is clearly by far and away the winner. The other three are about the same, and way far behind.

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

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Raymer is clearly by far and away the winner. The other three are about the same, and way far behind.

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Hachem has come damn close to winning both a WSOP Circuit ring and a WSOP bracelet in a huge Hold-em field less than a year after winning the Main Event in the largest field ever.

Moneymaker and Varkonyi both won the Main Event against much smaller fields, and have done absolutely nothing of any consequence in WSOP events before or after their one victory.

I think it's too early to make a judgment about Hachem v. Raymer. Raymer backed up his title in a big way last year, but Hachem has made a good showing in just a handful of tourneys this year.

So I think the big gap is between Raymer-Hachem and Moneymaker-Varkonyi, not between Raymer and the other three. Obviously this is all subject to change in the next few years...large field tournament results have enormous variance.

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

I think Raymer is one of the top tourney pros, but why do any of you think Hachem is any worse? These things are very hard to judge and it seems both Raymer and Hachem have played so few big tourneys that their results are pretty variance-heavy at this point.

Re: Past 6 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

Clearly we all see the trend in ranking the past 4 champs but lets go back to 2000 and add to the list Chris Ferguson and 2001- Carlos Mortensen. How does this change the rankings? I think Greg and Chris would be very close with Carlos, Joe, .....Chris and...............Robert rounding out my list.

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

Fossilman and it's not even close [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

I can't ask you the other "standard" question because you haven't been here long enough to know why

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

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Moneymaker and Varkonyi both won the Main Event against much smaller fields, and have done absolutely nothing of any consequence in WSOP events before or after their one victory.

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We need five years to make an accurate judgment between the two, but as a tourney player Chris has had more well-known success since the ME, mostly Poker Superstars Invitational recently. Robert had that silly frostbite title and I don't know what else.
Minor list from Hendon Mob site

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So I think the big gap is between Raymer-Hachem and Moneymaker-Varkonyi, not between Raymer and the other three. Obviously this is all subject to change in the next few years...large field tournament results have enormous variance.

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I agree that we can't downgrade Joe, as we don't know his whole history.. I would still rank Greg at the top, barring further evidence in the future. However, I wouldn't be that happy to see Joe sit down on my left, either.

Since we here have a long history with Greg, we know more about his daily records than just these listings

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

I still find it funny that Moneymaker gets 0 respect.

He has had more success than varkonyi and I think it's pretty much a toss-up between him and raymer (in terms of success since their wins)

I don't think there is a "large gap" between raymer/hachem and moneymaker as everyone here seems to believe.

Moneymaker never got any respect and I still can't see why.. he played great and had some great televised hands.

Even his 88 play was a great hand imo.

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Simple question that has many facets for discussion... the past 4 champions were all unknowns before their WSOP win. In what order do you respect the four as poker players given what we have seen of each, and why?

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By far, these are my favorite posts... clearing my throat... Personally, I'll give my most respect to the guy with the most money, at least Hachem's is whom I would butt kiss given the choice... he does have plenty of money to party with.

mike
TheRailbirds

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

He has not had much success at all at PSI. Although the heats are all listed, these are 6 person tables. A bunch of 5th and 6th place finishes doesn't say much for his progress. Anybody can win ONE given a good run of cards.

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

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And I think it needs to be noted the gap between Hachem and then Rob/Money is a lot bigger than any gap on the list.

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Agreed based on the little I have seen on tv

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

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I think it's pretty much a toss-up between him [Moneymaker] and raymer (in terms of success since their wins)

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What are you, [censored] retarded?

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

1. Hachem
2. Moneymaker
3. Raymer
4. Varkoni

I can not respect someone that wears those sunglasses and Varkoni is just a dork that married a mail order Russian bride. Moneymaker I respect second because he admits he was very fortunate to win the title. Finally I respect Hachem the most, because he is the most fit one of them all and actually looks "normal" which gives a better image to poker players.

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raymer- As good as anyone in a big torny.
Hachem- Way above average
Moneymaker- Pretty sure he wouldnt be huge favourite against anyone that posts here
Varkonyi- I had to look up for the spelling of this guys name, i think that sums it up

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

there arent enough toruneys played by most people to give a real good answer because you start from a big win and go forward. it needs to be who is still winning after a whole bunch of years both in tourney and cash games. i think greg is the only one of the bunch who will be able to say that.

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

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Raymer is clearly by far and away the winner. The other three are about the same, and way far behind.

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Hachem has come damn close to winning both a WSOP Circuit ring and a WSOP bracelet in a huge Hold-em field less than a year after winning the Main Event in the largest field ever.



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Hachem took horrendous beats to not win those events also. KK<JT and AQ<Ax. He's got game, no doubt.

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

How was the 2+2 reaction when Raymer won it?

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

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How was the 2+2 reaction when Raymer won it?

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I was actually wondering about this as well. Was there an "*official* ZOMG ZOMG RAYMER WSOP FT SWEAT THREAD"? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

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How was the 2+2 reaction when Raymer won it?

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I was actually wondering about this as well. Was there an "*official* ZOMG ZOMG RAYMER WSOP FT SWEAT THREAD"? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I think most 2+2ers 't outside the MTT forum didn't know who he was pre WSOP.

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

1. Raymer
2. Hachem
3. Moneymaker
4. Varkoni

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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How was the 2+2 reaction when Raymer won it?

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I was actually wondering about this as well. Was there an "*official* ZOMG ZOMG RAYMER WSOP FT SWEAT THREAD"? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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There was a different one each day.

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

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I think Raymer is one of the top tourney pros, ...

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Sorry, but this is a stretch. I'm not taking anything away from Greg but I think terms like 'top tourney pro' are overused. No one on that list is a top tourney pro.

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

This may be the only issue ever discussed where 2+2 has 100% agreement: Raymer, Hachem, Moneymaker, Varkonyi.

Re: Past 4 WSOP Champions- respect the most?
 

Moneymaker atleast got 2nd at the Bay 101. His WSOP performance wasn't stellar but he's atleast done something post WSOP.

He's placed in 3 events post WSOP and 1 being a 10 dollar buyin event.