Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

I'm specifically talking about the pro player.

The poker pro is running a business, just like any other business. The pro's business is playing poker, and turning a bottom line profit.

Let's take a live game 15/30 player making $40/hr. This person is paying about $12/hr in rake (3hands @ a full $4/hand), $3/hr in tokes ($1/hand won), and getting back about $1.00/hr in comped food/beverage.

That's about $14.00/hr in net costs on gross earnings of $55.00/hr. That's a profit margin of about 75%. For any business that would be considered an outstanding pre-tax margin. Heck, 20% is outstanding margin. For a mere 25% overhead, this person is receiving the benefits of advertising, trained dealers, a place where all players can safely come, and oh yeah, a place to actually work.

Seems like a pretty dang amazing deal to me. Online play is obviously even more amazing.

I just don't know of any other business where people literally complain and whine that their 75% pre-tax margin isn't higher. It's a business, and one with a pretty reasonable overhead structure.

This is inspired by people whining about toking dealers $1/hand, but it's obviously a broader concept. Anyways, stop whining, we've all got it pretty good.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

Good point. My margins after costs including labor for myself and my partner are lucky to hit 15% in the construction industry. I only rate our labor at $16/hr. We've got a total of 36 years combined experience in the field. I need a new job.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

Clarkmeister that's a good argument but there are some strong counterpoints as well.

It's not like the economy is insanely volatile and constantly changing, most businesses can expect a VERY steady income with almost no variance. Think about how often stuff breaks in say a laundromat, that's about as bad as they have it.

It's tough to tip on a medium-sized pot when stuck 60BB to a bunch of drunken lagtards who really wouldn't give a damn if they lost all their money.


The other argument is that, like you said, a poker player is running a business when he plays, and just like any business, they are always trying to minimize losses in every single way they can.

Why have 10% losses when you can have 5% losses? Every other player at the table is tipping, and a 17/9 is going to win way less pots than a 60/30, so what's the big loss?

All that said I think when people say "the rake is bad" the are deluding themselves, yes, paying rake is [censored] awful, I look at that stat in PT and want to throw up -- but the rake isn't high, it's what it's always been. If the rake was $2 max from the start people would still complain about the rake and most, maybe not all, but most who are not tipping as often as others would still not tip as often.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

First, most pros do NOT make over 1bb/hr from their game.

Second, try adding adding in the additional costs to obtain non-group health insurance for you or your family and let me know how that effects the bottom line.

Third, you forgot to include 941 tax (yours AND company share), into your equation. No big deal now, but if social security does still exist when you're an old man, you will have nothing. Oh, and unemployment tax and any benefits of 401k matching, etc.

Fourth, take out other benefits like sick days and 3 weeks vacation time.
These are all employee costs most companies have to figure into their bottom line.

Hey, there are a lot of benefits to playing poker for a living and I have nothing against tipping and also look at it as overhead. But in fairness, you have to look at the whole picture.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

Clark, this post isn't serious, right?

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

I'm starting to wonder if all the people that whine about tipping are just delusional losing poker players that think tips are what is killing their profit.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm starting to wonder if all the people that whine about tipping are just delusional losing poker players that think tips are what is killing their profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe thats because tipping does kill your profit.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe thats because tipping does kill your profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the love of God people...its simple: I-N-T-E-R-N-E-T!

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe thats because tipping does kill your profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the love of God people...its simple: I-N-T-E-R-N-E-T!

[/ QUOTE ]

sometimes I dont want to play internet poker. I would lose a very large % of my profit if I started tipping generously. The rake is bad enough..

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

Lestat, the analogy is poker compared to running your own business, not being employed.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

YATT

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

[ QUOTE ]
sometimes I dont want to play internet poker. I would lose a very large % of my profit if I started tipping generously. The rake is bad enough..

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell...you can't have your cake and eat it too! "I don't want to play internet poker; I also don't want to tip the dealer in a live game". What's next? You want to have the pizza delivered instead of picking it up, but don't want to tip the delivery boy?

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

I have also ran my own business. Out of a company's bottom line comes having to pay employee contributions for 941, vacation pay, sick pay, and contribute to 401k plans.

I agree with OP's point, that poker has a healthy profit margin, but it's all relative. I don't consider what a typical 15-30 pro makes to be a good living.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

last night i played some 6/12 and told the dealer that if i won the pot she was getting 10%. of course i cracked AA with my T9o and she got $30. i guess there is no point to this post other than to say that i am great.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Clarkmeister that's a good argument but there are some strong counterpoints as well.

It's not like the economy is insanely volatile and constantly changing, most businesses can expect a VERY steady income with almost no variance. Think about how often stuff breaks in say a laundromat, that's about as bad as they have it.

It's tough to tip on a medium-sized pot when stuck 60BB to a bunch of drunken lagtards who really wouldn't give a damn if they lost all their money.


The other argument is that, like you said, a poker player is running a business when he plays, and just like any business, they are always trying to minimize losses in every single way they can.

Why have 10% losses when you can have 5% losses? Every other player at the table is tipping, and a 17/9 is going to win way less pots than a 60/30, so what's the big loss?

All that said I think when people say "the rake is bad" the are deluding themselves, yes, paying rake is [censored] awful, I look at that stat in PT and want to throw up -- but the rake isn't high, it's what it's always been. If the rake was $2 max from the start people would still complain about the rake and most, maybe not all, but most who are not tipping as often as others would still not tip as often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who hacked into a dealer's account, to post this?

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

[ QUOTE ]
First, most pros do NOT make over 1bb/hr from their game.

Second, try adding adding in the additional costs to obtain non-group health insurance for you or your family and let me know how that effects the bottom line.

Third, you forgot to include 941 tax (yours AND company share), into your equation. No big deal now, but if social security does still exist when you're an old man, you will have nothing. Oh, and unemployment tax and any benefits of 401k matching, etc.

Fourth, take out other benefits like sick days and 3 weeks vacation time.
These are all employee costs most companies have to figure into their bottom line.

Hey, there are a lot of benefits to playing poker for a living and I have nothing against tipping and also look at it as overhead. But in fairness, you have to look at the whole picture.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you're going to compare a multi-employee business with a self-employed entity, I don't see what your point is.

And any $30 "pro" who can't handle health insurance and other living expenses at $1250-1500 a week should realign their expenditures with their income.

And it's "affects the bottom line" please.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

Unless the bottom line has been enhanced with all sorts of special effects.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

I try not to get involved in tipping threads and fail miserably. If people don't want to tip they will always be able to justify it and that is their perogative. What really burns me though is when they try to convince other people not to tip. Apparently there are some pros who are very vocal about telling people not to tip dealers. It's probably so they don't look bad when they stiff however I believe it will hurt them in the long run. The WSOP and other tournaments take 3% for the dealers. That along with the limited tips they receive is sufficient. Now if all these blowhards convince the rest of the players to stop tipping, the 3% will no longer be enough to attract qualified dealers. And we all now how they like to bitch about the dealers. So what's a company to do? They could pay the dealers more out of the profits but really, is that going to happen? No. There is no law that I know of that says they can only take 3% for the dealers. If necessary they can take 4%. Or 5%. And if all the major tournaments did it then the players would just have to live with it.
So just shut up and let those that tip tip and you can maximize your profit any way you choose. How does it benefit you to not have others tip?

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

I'm not a big fan of tipping. However, I agree 100% with your post. I agree that if you do not wish to tip, fine, but do not encourage others not to do so. Live and let live.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

Clark,

Two things.

One, we are mistakenly assuming that many poker players hae any sort of realistic concept of the expenses involved in running a business. Many of the children who post here barely play live poker and many don't make any money at it. Many people who claim to be 'pros' are losing money either from poor play or unrealistic spending. Even out of those few who do make a living at it, many have not succeeded in any other business or were drawn to poker because they are antisocial bastards who don't much care about anyone else.

Two, even in other American business the dominant ethos is and always has been profit above all else. Most of us are happy to rationalize a whole range of immoral, unethical or inconsiderate behavior - and to do so petulantly, self-righteously and short-sightedly. It's part of the culture, so to see it on these boards is no surprise.

NT

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

It's all in how one chooses to account for line items. I personally don't understand how people have no problem tipping wait staff, bell, concierge, car service and other service jobs where tipping is customary but the tighten up on dealers just because they choose to associate them directly with their gaming bottom line. Many of these same people will tip the bartender $5 for bringing them drinks when they're standing up at the bar that is 50 feet away from the table where they tipped a cocktail waitress $1 to bring the same drink. It's a mental association that to me appears to be quite arbitrary on where one draws the line on one's gaming money and one's personal money. I am sure there is some reasoning to it by people who have been doing it a long time. I know advantage blackjack players who also refused to tip dealers.

Like somone said above though, to each his own.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

Some here are missing the point of the post. Which, as I see it, is that the costs of doing business are pretty low for a professional poker player.

But I think a lot of pros see the rake as something very different from tipping. There's nothing to be done, if you play live poker, about the rake. But tipping is, rightly or wrongly, seen as optional.

Suppose, as a pro, you didn't get comped food. You would then have to pay for it at the table, or go into the restaurant to pay for it. Would you consider tipping the waitress/waiter optional? In theory it is, but in United States society, it's really not. Tipping poker dealers is basically the same thing.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't consider what a typical 15-30 pro makes to be a good living.

[/ QUOTE ]

A 15-30 live player or a 15-30 online player?(3 tabling 15-30 at 1.5BB/100 @ 300 hands an hour is over $100 an hour)

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

And I think that many people just take for granted that fact that they are getting comped food and 'cheap' drinks (free, but with a tip).
They are expected. but they are somehow NOT viewed as perks or as a positive.

People gripe about rake and tips because they want something to gripe about.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

<font color="blue"> Well, if you're going to compare a multi-employee business with a self-employed entity, I don't see what your point is. </font>

Even a self-proprietorship has many of the issues I mentioned. Also, there is a self-employment tax that OP does not mention, which is significant.

<font color="blue"> And any $30 "pro" who can't handle health insurance and other living expenses at $1250-1500 a week should realign their expenditures with their income.
</font>

Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter. You're assuming everyone cheats on their return! Or are you really naive enough to think most 15-30 pros net $1500 a week after taxes?

<font color="blue"> And it's "affects the bottom line" please. </font>

Thank you professor... Let me know next time when you're grading posts and I'll take my time not to make a typo.

<font color="blue"> And any $30 "pro" </font>

And it's " "$15 pro" please. OP makes no mention of $30-$60. You fail...

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

I was referring to live. Yes, if you are making 1.5BB/100 online playing 15-30, I would say that's a pretty good living. Unfortunately, I do not know a single person who has been able to do this long term. Although I do hear about them hear about them all the time. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's about $14.00/hr in net costs on gross earnings of $55.00/hr. That's a profit margin of about 75%.

[/ QUOTE ]
You didn't allow anything for travel and lodging. If the person lives close to the casino, this may be nominal or equal to what an average person would expect to pay to get to work. But some people have to travel quite a bit more than what would be considered a normal daily commute, and some may have to pay for overnight lodging. No?

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Out of a company's bottom line comes having to pay employee contributions for 941, vacation pay, sick pay, and contribute to 401k plans.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on what your company is and if you have any employees. I ran my own for quite awhile, primarily just myself doing everything. So in my case, and others like it, can pretty much cross off all those things you have listed as the cost of those is $0.

People tend to forget that a place is providing you a place to play and employees to run the game. That isn't done for free.

If someone is struggling so much that they can't afford $1 tip on any pot over $30, they shouldn't be playing for a living.

b

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

If we factor our losing sessions into the cost side of things, our profit margin isn't quite so appealing anymore.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

[ QUOTE ]
1.5BB/100 online playing 15-30, I would say that's a pretty good living. Unfortunately, I do not know a single person who has been able to do this long term. Although I do hear about them hear about them all the time. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes me feel ridiculously good.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

I know many old timers in Detroit who used to play in and operate backroom games before there were any casinos or poker rooms here. They tell me that the standard rake was 5-10% with no maximum. A $200 pot standard for a $10-$20 game would be raked $20. And these were backroom games that could get robbed, raided, or cheated and werent hardly as juicy as the casino games. And yet they still played because there was no internet and unless they wanted to fly to Vegas or AC that's all there was.

I played (unknowingly) in a game where the rake was 10% no maximum for a few hours. F--- that.

From the standpoint of the oldtimers, casino poker is really a deal. They get protection, good action, plenty of players, different games, different limits, cocktail service, some comps, and the rake is still cheaper than what they used to pay.

I, myself, living in Detroit and playing primarily limit poker at the casino have pay the highest rake in the country ($5 max and $6 max at MCC + $1 bad beat). When I play limit I'm usually not winning 3 pots an hour, it's more like 1 pot every two hours. I play very tightly in these games and let the other fish at the table throw their money back and forth and feed the rake. Many people say that you are paying $15 an hour regardless, on the average, but I disagree. I would imagine that the good solid player who is playing fairly tightly is not necessarily getting ass-raped by the high rake, but the loose fish who calls on every hand is paying more than their fair share.

I would play NL in Detroit, and my no-limit game is not very strong, but the reason is the players are just horrible. But there is a time charge rather than a rake, and the dealers and players are so painfully slow. As tight as I play I feel I am better off playing in a raked game limit game. The players there are just as bad and the house doesnt get as much of my profits.

What makes me sort of angry, though, is that MCC always has these short handed games w/o must move tables, so you are paying the same rake on a short table which starts to get you. They wont reduce the rake, either, (they will, but on the condition you lose the bad beat jackpot possibility. Fish never agree to this, so it never happens). When tables get short, I ask to combine tables. If they wont, I simply get up and stop playing.

There are alot of home games around, too, where noboby is taking any rake because they mistakingly think this makes the game legal. Regardless, as long as I know a few people in the game, I try to round these as much as I can.

I just wanted to add the idea that guys in Detroit were paying much higher than $5 max in the past. It seems to be tradition here in Detroit to charge fairly high rake to play. But to the old timers who were used to paying 10% no max, it's peanuts.

-J

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

[ QUOTE ]
last night i played some 6/12 and told the dealer that if i won the pot she was getting 10%. of course i cracked AA with my T9o and she got $30. i guess there is no point to this post other than to say that i am great.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok so how hot was she? 8?

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tipping poker dealers is basically the same thing.


[/ QUOTE ]

I view it as very different from a waiter/waitress. The server industry in general gets payed a minimum wage of $2.11-$2.34 per hour and they are expected to make a reasonable wage with tips. (at a typical applebees type this usually works out to 12-14$ per hour in tips). As far as i know most dealers get well over the minimum wage as base pay and then get (i am guessing) 10-30$ more an hour in tips while dealing.
I would also venture to say that a dealer has an easier job than a server.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

I've done both and dealing is only easier on the feet. Servers get minimum wage the same as dealers in some states. When I was a server in FL I got less but in CA it's the same. Dealers also mostly get minimum wage. After you've been with a company you might get an extra few cents. Or if you work at Orleans I think you get an extra buck (hazard pay NOT ENOUGH).

Warning- grades included
 

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> Well, if you're going to compare a multi-employee business with a self-employed entity, I don't see what your point is. </font>

Even a self-proprietorship has many of the issues I mentioned. Also, there is a self-employment tax that OP does not mention, which is significant.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I never said it wouldn't be- I believe it's in the 15-30% range?

<font color="red">-1 </font>

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> And any $30 "pro" who can't handle health insurance and other living expenses at $1250-1500 a week should realign their expenditures with their income.
</font>

Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter. You're assuming everyone cheats on their return! Or are you really naive enough to think most 15-30 pros net $1500 a week after taxes?

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red">-10 </font> for reading anywhere in my reply where I refer to net after taxes
<font color="red">-30 </font> for making the bizarre assumption that I assumed anything on cheating on taxes.


[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> And any $30 "pro" </font>

And it's " "$15 pro" please. OP makes no mention of $30-$60. You fail...

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't realize that pros labeled themselves by the lower number. I failed on that one.. but not as badly as you did overall.

Just so you don't miss the point again- anyone bringing in $63-75,000 ($25-30 an hour, 50 hours a week, 50 weeks at $15/30) from poker who can't budget around that income is either an idiot, playing at the wrong level for his/her expenses, or is wrong about what they're grossing from the tables.

When someone uses the "1bb/hour" rule, I always assume that the number is gross profit from the table, with rake and tipping and immediate game-related expenses already removed. If that assumption is incorrect, you may enlighten me with more accurate figures.

Re: Warning- grades included
 

[ QUOTE ]
When someone uses the "1bb/hour" rule, I always assume that the number is gross profit from the table, with rake and tipping and immediate game-related expenses already removed. If that assumption is incorrect, you may enlighten me with more accurate figures

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct. You can see it in how I did my math in the original post.

Also, the 1BB/hr rule is pretty antiquaited, especially at the lower limits since the advent of TV. Anyone who can't easily exceed 1BB/hr is either in a bad game, not really good at poker, or both.

Re: Warning- grades included
 

[ QUOTE ]

Also, the 1BB/hr rule is pretty <font color="blue">antiquated</font>, especially at the lower limits since the advent of TV. Anyone who can't easily exceed 1BB/hr is either in a bad game, not really good at poker, or both.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assumed as much, but even going by the ~1BB rule, it should work if you budget carefully. Not much of a living, but there are far lower SOL and worse jobs out there.

[i]sorry about the <font color="blue">nit</font>, but I don't want Lestat whining about favouritism

Do people look at poker pros in an unrealistic way?
 

First off, I agree that tipping, for a strong winning player, comes with the territory in most cases and is not that huge a deal in that player's whole picture.

However, most winning casino players don't win anywhere near $40/hr. long-term in live $15/30 games. Even most $15/30 casino pros don't do nearly that well.

I gather that you're an extremely talented player, Clarkmeister. Lumping most pros into a category that considers you as the average would be very misleading.

For a really strong winning pro, tipping is not that huge a deal; you're right about that--and for the really strong winning player, poker is a good return on investment in the self-employed business sense.

But...for many players who are sort of struggling at being pro (and there are, and have always been, a LOT of them), it is a big deal. If a $15/30 casino pro makes $20/hr. instead of $40, it is a big deal to tip $3 per hour. If they choose not to tip those dealers who don't even try to give good service (and there are quite a number of them), I don't blame them. If they choose to tip only on decent-sized pots, I don't blame them. For that matter I don't have a problem with any player not tipping those dealers who don't even try to make an effort to do a good job, or with those players who don't tip on smallish pots.

For marginally winning pros, small expenses affect their bottom lines proportionately far more than for really strong pros like yourself. Maybe they should be doing something else for a living, but it's their choice. Things like tipping a "little less" or "little more"; whether they get the cheapest eats at the casino or go for a nicer (but not top line) meal; whether they put in 35 hours per week or 55 hours per week--these things can make or break them in the long run. And that actually applies to most of the "pros" out there.

People on this forum, and in some books and articles, bandy about win rates like 1.5 bb/100 hands online and 1.5 big bets per hour live in Limit Hold'Em as if these are the norm or something for winning players. That's very far from the case, and very unrealistically optimistic. Yes there are many players who have done that recently in the poker explosion, but there are many more winning players who win much less. Just because a lot of players have won a lot recently, does not suggest that most winning players, or even most pros, are winning a lot.

Another factor in some places is the shared tip situation, especially if it is shared with the whole casino. This is a terrible system which penalizes the good dealers, rewards the bad dealers and those who don't make an effort, and makes it less meaningful to personally tip when you win a pot, as your tip may be split up amongst what--5,000 dealers for the shift, maybe? So if you tip $5,000 dollars over the course of the year (which is not hard to do), each dealer in the poker room might end up with $1 from you for the entire year (before taxes). Great freakin' system! (sarcasm), but that may be worthy of another thread which I don't feel like starting now.

Re: Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tipping poker dealers is basically the same thing.


[/ QUOTE ]

I view it as very different from a waiter/waitress. The server industry in general gets payed a minimum wage of $2.11-$2.34 per hour and they are expected to make a reasonable wage with tips. (at a typical applebees type this usually works out to 12-14$ per hour in tips). As far as i know most dealers get well over the minimum wage as base pay and then get (i am guessing) 10-30$ more an hour in tips while dealing.
I would also venture to say that a dealer has an easier job than a server.

[/ QUOTE ]

I make four dollars and twenty five cents an hour as a dealer.

Re: Warning- grades included
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When someone uses the "1bb/hour" rule, I always assume that the number is gross profit from the table, with rake and tipping and immediate game-related expenses already removed. If that assumption is incorrect, you may enlighten me with more accurate figures

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct. You can see it in how I did my math in the original post.

Also, the 1BB/hr rule is pretty antiquaited, especially at the lower limits since the advent of TV. Anyone who can't easily exceed 1BB/hr is either in a bad game, not really good at poker, or both.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 1BB/hr. for live games was not a rule or "rule of thumb" but rather a winning rate for the really good (but not truly great) pros. Even back before TV and before internet poker got so popular, most pros made substantially less. To win 1BB/hr. in Limit Hold'Em year after year you had to be really, really good (say 10 or more years ago).

We don't hear too much about the failure or hard times stories from pros who have run bad. Some pros have won for years and never run really bad for say 6 months live. Kudos to Dynasty for posting his update a while back. For every Dynasty who plays well but runs bad for some months straight, there are many, many more we never hear of. And if someone talented and disiplined like Dynasty can run bad for months, how long can a player a bit less talented and a little less disciplined run bad???

Even Ed Miller has seemed to be suggesting that ppl are winning what-200K per year?-all over the place, or that pulling money out of your Party account to go to the WSOP is a natural thing to do, no problem. My response is that yes the games are good but we don't hear much about the losers or those pros that are just getting by and may be in jeopardy of going broke if they hit an extended bad run.

Have you ever run really bad in live play for over three months straight, Clarkmeister? How about for 6 months? If it can happen for 3 months, it can happen for 3 months again, back to back, = 6 months.

Yes, I agree that a good player should be able to win about a BB/hr. or maybe somewhat more playing live limit hold'em in today's games. Should. Many won't, though.