Debate: Teachers Wages
 

It got me thinking...should people get paid for their worth (define worth as contributions to society)?

-Obviously not even close in our society, which allows poker players and sport stars to make millions while teachers comparatively get paid squat. That’s not to say poker players and sports stars do not work hard for their money, but there is a big difference in the overall contributions to society that each job exhibits....

A common suggestion is-
Teachers should not be paid by the hours they work, but by the grades of the students they teach.

Yet, this level of thinking brings up a lot of problems…

- Some teachers would simply lie, and give their crappy students an A+.
- What if a good teacher gets a lousy group of students
- Geographical location… it’s a known fact children coming from economically stable environments do better then the kids struggling from poverty.

There are a lot of factors, people over look when trying to raise wages. If you raise salaries of underpaid jobs, then other companies would just raise there price on goods and merchandise, etc.. thus accomplishing nothing.

Raising the wages of teachers in general would accomplishe absolutely nothing. It would be more beneficial if teachers were evaluated more closely and often. Bad teachers need to get fired while good teachers need raises. Bottom line, the public school system is like communism (hence why the public school system sucks so bad in America).

At the same time, I bet there are 10000 great and better ideas out there to improve the public school system. Yet, when the measures come to the polls they always fail. Mainly because people who do not have kids will vote against school legislation. In general people refuse to spend tax dollars on issues not directly affecting them. How do we fix this? Any thoughts or comments would greatly be appreciated.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
It would be more beneficial if teachers were evaluated more closely and often. Bad teachers need to get fired while good teachers need raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Vouchers.

[ QUOTE ]
Bottom line, the public school system is like communism (hence why the public school system sucks so bad in America).

[/ QUOTE ]

Vouchers.

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At the same time, I bet there are 10000 great and better ideas out there to improve the public school system.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why the hell don't we use vouchers yet?

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
At the same time, I bet there are 10000 great and better ideas out there to improve the public school system. Yet, when the measures come to the polls they always fail. Mainly because people who do not have kids will vote against school legislation. In general people refuse to spend tax dollars on issues not directly affecting them. How do we fix this? Any thoughts or comments would greatly be appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a plausable idea for major cities. Imagine a school in the inner-city of Chicago. It is made of all kinds of students from the best to the worse. The worse encumber the ability for the best to obtain an education in a favorable environment.

So, you segregate the students, by the type of student they are. Students getting A's & B's go to seperate schools. Those getting Low B's & C's, who do not have disciplinary problems go to other schools. Those getting low B's & C's with disciplinary problems go to another school. Those getting low B's & C's with more serious disciplinary problems go to another school.
Finally, the criminals (but still students) who seldom show up, other than to fight, deal drugs, disrupt class, destroy school property, attack teachers, get their own schools, manned with armed guards.

Now the students have a reason to excel: To get into the best school, with the best chance of succeeding in life. The light at the end of the tunnel is no longer as dim as it appeared............at least, that's what I think.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why the hell don't we use vouchers yet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Vouchers allow those students whose parents are not quite well enough off financially to pay their way through a private school.

Therefore, Vouchers do nothing but remove those students, whose parents are not quite rich enough to finance their kids education out of their own pocket, from the public school system, and does absolutely nothing to cure the problem.

Furthermore, imagine the dissent in the private schools, when the students of parents who qualify for Vouchers because they make 15% < X meet up with kids whose parents make X + 15% and do not qualify for vouchers.
The parents making X +15% are paying more out of pocket than the parents making X - 15% and in many cases will have less disposable income after paying for their kids schooling than those making X -15%.

That doesn't even begin to sound fair.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

IMO, one large problem in the failing schools, are the parents.

An example of dealing with a "failing" school.

Two years ago we received a letter stating that my daughters school failed for the year. The letter said that if I wanted to switch her to another school, I needed to come in and meet with them. I got there and the woman pulled my daughter's grades and FCAT scores, (straight A's and very good FCAT scores). She said, well your daughter doesn't qualify because she is obviously very bright. She then looked up and realized that she doesn't receive free or reduced school lunch. She said "I'm sorry but she doesn't qualify". This kind of disturbed me, I said "so if she was stupid, and the government helped me feed her, she could go?" Begrudgingly she said "yes." I told her that "I can understand you don't control it, but the government can throw money at it til the cows come home and it won't get any better until the sorry assed parents get off their lazy asses and work with their children at home".

Understand that this was an elementary school. IMO a kid has to try to fail in order to get bad grades in K-5th grade. Unless they have some sort of learning disability.

Perhaps atleast worth a "pilot program" is to allow the private market to educate. Instead of putting x-dollars into schools, spend x-dollars on each child to go and get educated in a private school. The teacher's union would raise hell like you couldn't imagine.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

I'll beat natedog to this.

Is your goal to:

1) Educate Children
2) Preserve the Public School System

One doesn't necessitate the other. You can educate children without government run schools.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

Generally I think wages should be free market. It is impossible to argue that athletes and movie stars are "overpaid" (poker players are a different story, and in fact are probably underpaid as "entertainers"). As long as people pay $100+ for their sports seats and $15 (havent been to the movies for years...that about right?)then athletes and movie stars are earning what they make. If they get to the point where ownership/studios are no longer viable, there will be a correction.

Other jobs/careeers work pretty well in their realm as well, because ultimately there is a product to sell, and the labor cost for making those products will find the right level between profitably, skills, education etc.

When you get to teaching though, there is a disconnect. There are no product sales that have measurable profits to provide a natural benchmark to wages. Even if you find effective benchmarks for "performance" (most likely testing related, not grades), that only gives you relative value between teachers, not between teachers and other jobs. Should an entry level high school teacher earn more or less than an entry level accountant? nurse? management trainee?

I dont know the right level, but I do think its too low right now. Teaching might not be the right career for the "best and the brightest", their value to society might best be invested in other areas. But it also shouldnt be the refuge for the mediocre, who can do little more than babysit.

Have public school salaries kept pace with inflation for the last 50-60 years? The overall quality of education was clearly better 40 years ago, apart from the family aspects. If the relative wages for teaching has fallen, that may be a clue to the problem.

Anyone who has the notion that complete privatization of schools doesnt have a grip on reality. The ultimate result is almost inevitable...a much smaller group excelling, a much larger group dropping out or just marking time, and a lower achieving middle than we have right now.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

I am so sick of hearing about how low teacher's wages are. They get three months off and it's an easy ass job. They teach simple subject matter and have no one to answer to. They have total job security and have no pressure to perform well beyond their own intrinsic motivation. And to tell you the truth, teachers importance is another vastly over-rated dogma. I've learned more from books than I have from teachers. [/rant]

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am so sick of hearing about how low teacher's wages are. They get three months off and it's an easy ass job. They teach simple subject matter and have no one to answer to. They have total job security and have no pressure to perform well beyond their own intrinsic motivation. And to tell you the truth, teachers importance is another vastly over-rated dogma. I've learned more from books than I have from teachers. [/rant]

[/ QUOTE ]

1. It is far from an "easy ass job" when its done properly. It doesnt start at 8 and end at 3, with planning, grading, meetings etc. it is easily a 10 hour a day job.

2. Its more like 2 months off, but teachers arent able to hibernate. They still have to eat, feed their families, pay their mortgages etc for those 2 months. On top of that, while they get the same standard holidays as everyone else, they dont have other paid "vacations". If the average vacation time in other industries is 4 weeks, the teacher is less productive than other industries by 1 month, far less than the 3 you are maintaining. The answer to that is to utilize them for that month, either by adjusting to a more year round schedule or finding other things they can do, like continuing education requirements, tutoring etc.

3. The level of job security is higher than other non-unionized industries, but comparable to other union jobs. Pay for performance will go a long way to weeding out or at least mitigating the impact, and certainly address your "motivation" and "pressure" issues.

4. There may be a rare few who can learn as well from books than from teachers, but they are the exception. Their importance is NOT overrated. There is little doubt that they are failing to do their jobs as well as possible, but thats a problem with the system (likely to be a wage issue more than anything), not an intrincically lower value for what they are supposed to be doing.

When you stop ranting, start thinking.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

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They have total job security and have no pressure to perform well beyond their own intrinsic motivation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a good thing?

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am so sick of hearing about how low teacher's wages are. They get three months off and it's an easy ass job. They teach simple subject matter and have no one to answer to. They have total job security and have no pressure to perform well beyond their own intrinsic motivation. And to tell you the truth, teachers importance is another vastly over-rated dogma. I've learned more from books than I have from teachers. [/rant]

[/ QUOTE ]

1. It is far from an "easy ass job" when its done properly. It doesnt start at 8 and end at 3, with planning, grading, meetings etc. it is easily a 10 hour a day job.

2. Its more like 2 months off, but teachers arent able to hibernate. They still have to eat, feed their families, pay their mortgages etc for those 2 months. On top of that, while they get the same standard holidays as everyone else, they dont have other paid "vacations". If the average vacation time in other industries is 4 weeks, the teacher is less productive than other industries by 1 month, far less than the 3 you are maintaining. The answer to that is to utilize them for that month, either by adjusting to a more year round schedule or finding other things they can do, like continuing education requirements, tutoring etc.

3. The level of job security is higher than other non-unionized industries, but comparable to other union jobs. Pay for performance will go a long way to weeding out or at least mitigating the impact, and certainly address your "motivation" and "pressure" issues.

4. There may be a rare few who can learn as well from books than from teachers, but they are the exception. Their importance is NOT overrated. There is little doubt that they are failing to do their jobs as well as possible, but thats a problem with the system (likely to be a wage issue more than anything), not an intrincically lower value for what they are supposed to be doing.

When you stop ranting, start thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for spitting back common goodthink that we have all heard a million times.

Teaching IS an incredibly easy ass job. I just don't buy that it's hard. I used to work with people with severe developmental disabilities and I would spend six months just teaching them just one life skill like doing laundry. That was hard. I home schooled my nephew who was a problem child. That was very simple in comparison. That's when I learned that teaching is not that hard.

If being a teacher is so hard and they are so valuable then why is there a surplus of teachers when they get paid so little? They get paid what their worth. In fact, the market says they get payed more than they are worth, hence the surplus.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
Teaching IS an incredibly easy ass job. I just don't buy that it's hard. I used to work with people with severe developmental disabilities and I would spend six months just teaching them just one life skill like doing laundry. That was hard. I home schooled my nephew who was a problem child. That was very simple in comparison. That's when I learned that teaching is not that hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for quoting your anecdotal "evidence" as data. Please try teaching in a classroom with 30 clones of your "problem child" nephew every day, keeping them in line, communicating with parents and administration and having them pass a state mandated test in March and the let us know how "easy" it is. You really are absolutely clueless.

[ QUOTE ]
If being a teacher is so hard and they are so valuable then why is there a surplus of teachers when they get paid so little? They get paid what their worth. In fact, the market says they get payed more than they are worth, hence the surplus.

[/ QUOTE ]

10 years ago there was a teacher surplus. Now there is a definite teacher shortage. But again, it depends on a) where you live and b) what kind of teacher you're talking about. In affluent suburbs, there is probably a teacher surplus in elementary school teachers. But you cannot tell me that in urban areas, there are people beating down the doors to teach high school math and science. There is a massive teacher shortage. Some of it has to do with money but most of it has to do with the fact that teachers don't want to deal with parents who whine more than their kids do.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

My aunt, sister, cousin, and four college buddys are all teachers. My college buddys (all of which are math teachers) have all had a hell of a time getting jobs. My cousin just got a job and beat out thirty applicants for that one position.

I'll take thirty problem children (like that is even remotely accurate in describing the average classroom anyway) over a dozen severly developmentally disabled individuals and a 14 year old who drinks and smokes an ounce of pot a week any day. Much easier. If you really think teaching simple subjects year after year is super hard then I guess we have different standards on what is and what is not hard.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
My aunt, sister, cousin, and four college buddys are all teachers. My college buddys (all of which are math teachers) have all had a hell of a time getting jobs. My cousin just got a job and beat out thirty applicants for that one position.

I'll take thirty problem children (like that is even remotely accurate in describing the average classroom anyway) over a dozen severly developmentally disabled individuals and a 14 year old who drinks and smokes an ounce of pot a week any day. Much easier. If you really think teaching simple subjects year after year is super hard then I guess we have different standards on what is and what is not hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK..so what is hard? Outside of teaching altogether, since not many would argue that special needs children arent more difficult than average to teach.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My aunt, sister, cousin, and four college buddys are all teachers. My college buddys (all of which are math teachers) have all had a hell of a time getting jobs. My cousin just got a job and beat out thirty applicants for that one position.

I'll take thirty problem children (like that is even remotely accurate in describing the average classroom anyway) over a dozen severly developmentally disabled individuals and a 14 year old who drinks and smokes an ounce of pot a week any day. Much easier. If you really think teaching simple subjects year after year is super hard then I guess we have different standards on what is and what is not hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK..so what is hard? Outside of teaching altogether, since not many would argue that special needs children arent more difficult than average to teach.

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Many things, that's my point. Playing poker for a living, running a business, being a morgage broker, stockbroker, real estate agent, an accountant, nurse, ect. My point is that I am sick of hearing about how hard and noble being a teacher is. Most teachers aren't noble, it's a job just like any other. Maybe ten percent excel and make a difference but the same can be said about any profession.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My aunt, sister, cousin, and four college buddys are all teachers. My college buddys (all of which are math teachers) have all had a hell of a time getting jobs. My cousin just got a job and beat out thirty applicants for that one position.

I'll take thirty problem children (like that is even remotely accurate in describing the average classroom anyway) over a dozen severly developmentally disabled individuals and a 14 year old who drinks and smokes an ounce of pot a week any day. Much easier. If you really think teaching simple subjects year after year is super hard then I guess we have different standards on what is and what is not hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK..so what is hard? Outside of teaching altogether, since not many would argue that special needs children arent more difficult than average to teach.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many things, that's my point. Playing poker for a living - <font color="red"> I agree, its harder than being a teacher, and in the long run wont pay as much. Stupid choice of a profession imo. If you have the mental abilities to be makig a lot of money at poker there are easier ways to make a better income </font>

running a business <font color="red">depends on the business </font> ,

being a morgage broker <font color="red"> a trivially easy job, not even close to teaching </font> , stockbroker <font color="red"> comparable in skills, way overpaid, not at all hard if you have the personality for it </font> , real estate agent <font color="red">you must be kidding with this one </font> , an accountant <font color="red"> your day to day middle management number cruncher with no aspirations for partnership? nowhere near as hard as teaching </font> , nurse, <font color="red"> comparable </font> ect. My point is that I am sick of hearing about how hard and noble being a teacher is. <font color="red"> "noble" you can leave for philosophers, "hard" doesnt change depending on whether you are sick of hearing about it or not. </font> Most teachers aren't noble, it's a job just like any other. <font color="red"> Nobody says it isnt a job like any other, what is being discussed is whether the wages attract people commensurate with the importance of the job. </font> Maybe ten percent excel and make a difference but the same can be said about any profession.

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="red"> ten percent is way to high, for teaching or any profession. If 1% excel I would be surprised. That doesnt mean that striving to improve the middle ground isnt worthwhile </font>

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

Copernicus,

You are way off with as far as the morgage broker is concerned. That is a VERY stressfull job; most can only hack it for 3 or 4 years.

Also, 95% of stockbrockers fail. Passing a series 7 is no joke. This is WAY harder than teaching. No, I am not kidding about a real estate agent. Again a 90% plus failure rate. Much much higher than teaching and way more stressfull.

I currently run my own business and this is the hardest thing I have ever done. Harder than playing poker and working with developmentally disabled adults.

Pretty much, I disagree with almost all of your assumptions. You really don't seem to have a good grasp of what it takes to make it in these professions. This is why I think you are grossly overestimating the difficulty of teaching.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

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Anyone who has the notion that complete privatization of schools doesnt have a grip on reality.

[/ QUOTE ]

why?

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
At the same time, I bet there are 10000 great and better ideas out there to improve the public school system.

[/ QUOTE ]

I only know of one, vouchers. End the government monopoly.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

Im not underestimating or overestimating anything, and my "grasp" of what they take is just fine. I think you are underestimating what a teacher does. Also we are likely to have different definitions of "hard". For example, I dont equate stressful with "hard". Stress isnt intrinsic to many jobs, air traffic controller being one of the few exceptions, stress is mostly self imposed.

I dont consider putting in 10-12 hours a day on the phone with a computer clicking "Fixed Rate", "ARM", Credit Score etc. "hard". The majority of a mortgage brokers job can be replaced by a website and a customer service rep with a couple of weeks of training. The typical mortgage broker exam can be passed after a week with a study manual. I was an assistant to a mortgage broker and then a mortgage broker for 3 years as a college dropout and found it incredibly boring.

Stressful? Any job can be stressful if you have unrealistic expectations for long term potential. I couldnt sell life insurance if my life depended on it. The stress of inconsistent earnings and constantly being in backslapping mode would be extremely stressful for me. That doesnt make it hard. The life insurance exams could be passed by anyone who can get a teaching certificate.

Some people would find consultative sales very stressful, to me its natural, and not the least bit hard.

I also distinguish between a job being "hard" and a job requiring attaining specific knowledge. The NASD exams are not particularly difficult taken sequentially and incrementally. Moderate success/failure as a broker has much more to do with perseverence and personality than the job being "hard".

My job as an actuary/financial consultant is embarassingly easy. The exam process to become credentialed is far and away the most difficult and comprehensive of any job except doctor. The average teacher works far harder and faces more stress than I do, and Im in the top 15% (but not the top 5%) of my profession.

Ive already conceded that running your own business is hard, and stressful. I also dont consider it a "job" per se. (I even need to qualify that...building your own business is hard. If you have experience in the field and had a windfall of money and walked in and bought a thriving business, running it well wouldnt be particularly hard).

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

I suppose being a teacher could be stressful if you could get fired or your performance affected your pay. It would be immensely stressful if little kids had control over your fate.

However, they don't. Most public school teachers I knew didn't do any work and just ate donuts all day.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose being a teacher could be stressful if you could get fired or your performance affected your pay. It would be immensely stressful if little kids had control over your fate.

However, they don't. Most public school teachers I knew didn't do any work and just ate donuts all day.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think youre mixing jobs here..they arent cops [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. (Now thats a hard job!)

I am not debating that you cant be a lazy POS as a teacher...you cant be a lazy POS and be a good teacher, and even if there are no "good teachers" that doesnt mean the job when done right doesnt have value to society. We dont need another 50,000 good mortgage brokers, we do need another 50,000 good teachers.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

Copernicus,

I'm sorry, I just don't agree with anything you're saying here. You've basically just taken my points and said that you don't agree. I'm doing the same to you. I don't think we are going to find common ground on this one.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
Copernicus,

I'm sorry, I just don't agree with anything you're saying here. You've basically just taken my points and said that you don't agree. I'm doing the same to you. I don't think we are going to find common ground on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would this be any different than any other thread? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

There should be no argument that teachers contribute a great deal to society. Teachers shape the leaders of tommorow. Sports athletes well they entertain us...but their overall contributions to society are much less. Therefore the extreme pay grade differential just seems ridiculous.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
We dont need another 50,000 good mortgage brokers, we do need another 50,000 good teachers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?

How does one determine what jobs are "needed" in society?

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who has the notion that complete privatization of schools doesnt have a grip on reality.

[/ QUOTE ]

why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Copernicus, I think this is an important question. Could you explain your reasoning why you believe that privatization of schools is not as good as the current alternative? I think that this is a very important part of the debate.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We dont need another 50,000 good mortgage brokers, we do need another 50,000 good teachers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?

How does one determine what jobs are "needed" in society?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because doesn't it just feel like the right thing to do is force others to pour more money in to public schooling?

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
There should be no argument that teachers contribute a great deal to society. Teachers shape the leaders of tommorow. Sports athletes well they entertain us...but their overall contributions to society are much less. Therefore the extreme pay grade differential just seems ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

again, athletes and entertainers are paid for the income they generate. If 50 home games of some sport a year generate $75 million in revenue, and the owners need the talent to fill the seats, then the athletes deserve what the can get. If given the choice between paying $400 for a night out at the local arena with the kids, or paying an extra $400 taxes to upgrade the wages of the teachers of their kids (and presumably the quality of the teachers as a result), most will probably pick the sport event.

AFU? definitely, but thats not the athletes fault.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
There should be no argument that teachers contribute a great deal to society. Teachers shape the leaders of tommorow. Sports athletes well they entertain us...but their overall contributions to society are much less. Therefore the extreme pay grade differential just seems ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

If teachers do contribute so much to society (I"m not argueing with you, I believe they do) then they should have no problem getting paid a good salary by private schools.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
If given the choice between paying $400 for a night out at the local arena with the kids, or paying an extra $400 taxes to upgrade the wages of the teachers of their kids (and presumably the quality of the teachers as a result), most will probably pick the sport event.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, because most will see it as a choice between spending $400 on $400 worth of entertainment, vs. spending $400 on nothing.

Now, if that $400 went directly to their kid's education, suddenly things are a little different.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There should be no argument that teachers contribute a great deal to society. Teachers shape the leaders of tommorow. Sports athletes well they entertain us...but their overall contributions to society are much less. Therefore the extreme pay grade differential just seems ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

If teachers do contribute so much to society (I"m not argueing with you, I believe they do) then they should have no problem getting paid a good salary by private schools.

[/ QUOTE ]

and yet private school pay is lower than publics.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There should be no argument that teachers contribute a great deal to society. Teachers shape the leaders of tommorow. Sports athletes well they entertain us...but their overall contributions to society are much less. Therefore the extreme pay grade differential just seems ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

If teachers do contribute so much to society (I"m not argueing with you, I believe they do) then they should have no problem getting paid a good salary by private schools.

[/ QUOTE ]

and yet private school pay is lower than publics.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are comparing apples to oranges. You are assuming pay for a teacher in an entirely privatized system will stay the same (or less) then what teachers that work for private schools are getting paid.

And I'm still waiting for your reasoning as to why ending public schools and leaving it to the free market wouldn't be better then public.

Even if it turned out teachers get paid less then what they get aid for now, it would just mean that they have less value then what me and you thought. If we live in a society where what you learn and how you did in highschool matters (which I believe and I'd assume you do to) then people would be willing to pay schools an apt amount of money to make a profit, and be able to pay teachers their respective value to teach their kids.

Threatening people with jail time if they don't hand over money for a crappy system when they may not get anything from it anyway is not the way to make the best product. Do you disagree?

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
At the same time, I bet there are 10000 great and better ideas out there to improve the public school system.


[/ QUOTE ]

#1 is to get rid of it entirely.

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Yet, when the measures come to the polls they always fail. Mainly because people who do not have kids will vote against school legislation.

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I disagree. Proposals for *reform* are shot down because of the all-powerful public employee's union. Proposals for more money generally do pretty well. It's because the public has swallowed the nonsense that supporting the public employee's union is the same as supporting good schools for kids, and that schools need more money. Both are false.

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In general people refuse to spend tax dollars on issues not directly affecting them. How do we fix this? Any thoughts or comments would greatly be appreciated.

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The problem with public schools is not due to lack of funds. Not even close.

natedogg

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There should be no argument that teachers contribute a great deal to society. Teachers shape the leaders of tommorow. Sports athletes well they entertain us...but their overall contributions to society are much less. Therefore the extreme pay grade differential just seems ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

If teachers do contribute so much to society (I"m not argueing with you, I believe they do) then they should have no problem getting paid a good salary by private schools.

[/ QUOTE ]

and yet private school pay is lower than publics.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are comparing apples to oranges. You are assuming pay for a teacher in an entirely privatized system will stay the same (or less) then what teachers that work for private schools are getting paid. <font color="red">I didnt compare anything to anything, I just stated a fact, private school teachers make less than public school teachers do. I dont know where teachers wages would go in a totally privatized system </font>

And I'm still waiting for your reasoning as to why ending public schools and leaving it to the free market wouldn't be better then public. <font color="red"> i didnt know you were waiting. tell me the sturucture of this "Free market" education system and i'll comment. Ive never devised one. </font>

Even if it turned out teachers get paid less then what they get aid for now, it would just mean that they have less value then what me and you thought. If we live in a society where what you learn and how you did in highschool matters (which I believe and I'd assume you do to) then people would be willing to pay schools an apt amount of money to make a profit, and be able to pay teachers their respective value to teach their kids. <font color="red">who pays? who sets the wages? </font>

Threatening people with jail time if they don't hand over money for a crappy system when they may not get anything from it anyway is not the way to make the best product. Do you disagree?

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="red"> IVe seen this line before...was it also from you? 1. You dont go to jail for not paying your property taxes so the inflammatory rhetoric is silly. 2. If you dont believe you are receiving good value for your property tax dollar you can move. Since your premise is wrong, there is nothing to agree or disagree with.</font>

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

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The teacher's union would raise hell like you couldn't imagine.

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This is the crux of the problem today. Nearly everything wrong with public school can be laid at the feet of the teachers' union.

natedogg

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

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The teacher's union would raise hell like you couldn't imagine.

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This is the crux of the problem today. Nearly everything wrong with public school can be laid at the feet of the teachers' union.

natedogg

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do you think thats true of all unions or unique to the teachers union?

If the latter, what is about the teachers union (with less organized crime infiltration than many other unions) that made it worse?

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

If you are just stating the fact that private school teachers make less then public (I don't know but I'll assume you are right) and that has nothing to do with the discussion then I don't know why you posted it.

As for how privatiztion would work, basically here is my theory- In free market capitalism, if people want a product that someone can create and make a profit off of, it will be created. Education is no different. If parents across an area want to send their kids to school, there is no reason not to expect eutrapreanuers or buisnessmen to see profit in creating private schools that basically operate like our colleges do now. There is also no reason not to expect to pay less money then we pay for public schools, being that they will be more efficent since they can fail (which is contrary to public schools). Some schools would be better and cost more, others would geared towards the mddle class, others for poorer areas.

So exactly what will happen? i could imagine a few scenarios, but I think it's impossible to tell exactly how it would happen. Perhapes Borodog or Hmk could say how they would believe it would work.
editted for some bad spelling

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

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and yet private school pay is lower than publics.

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Public school pay isn't subject to market forces. The "buyer" (government) arbitarily sets the wage and forces taxpayers to to cough it up.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

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IVe seen this line before...was it also from you? 1. You dont go to jail for not paying your property taxes so the inflammatory rhetoric is silly.

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But the state may foreclose on your property.

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2. If you dont believe you are receiving good value for your property tax dollar you can move.

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That's no justification, it's just an admission that the state is bullying people around.

I'm coming over to your house tonight with some hotdogs. You will buy them from me for $100 each, and you'll keep buying them until I tell you to stop. If you don't think this is a good deal, you need to move to siberia. Enjoy!