What is patriotism?
 

How do you define it? Is it positive or negative? I think 'my country right or wrong' is one of the dumbest things someone can say but feel free to pursuade me I'm wrong. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


CHICAGO - When it comes to national pride, Americans are No. 1, according to a survey of 34 countries' patriotism. Venezuela came in a close second in the survey, released Tuesday by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago.

USA #1!!!

Re: What is patriotism?
 

Germany and Japan were probably in a close race for number 1 around 1936, but that didn't turn out to be a very good thing.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

Right on the mark, partiotism is [censored] STUPID.

How/why Americans think this is the greatest country in the world (at WHAT?!?!) boggles my mind. Education is dumb (although I'm not convinced it's that much better elsewhere), health care is expensive, drug laws are brutal, women have to be 18, drinkers have to be 21, we're more in debt than any country in the world, our citizens' average net worth is negative (technically, doesn't that make us the poorest country in the world?) and our leader's a [censored] [censored]. This is the only country in the world where people who have never been to another country will say that this is the best country in the world.

Yes, "my country right or wrong is one of the dumbest things a person can say." Defining your country as the basis of what's right and what's wrong is the single most open invitation to totalitarian abuse.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

Patriotism is devotion or love for your country.

Patriotism is neither positive or negative in the abstract.

"My country right or wrong" is an emotional sentiment, just like "blood is thicker than water." It is neither inherently wrong nor inherently stupid to form emotional attachments, even to one's country.

Many angry liberals are patriotic. They are angry because something they care about is being screwed up. Patriotism may be devotion to one's country, but it doesn't have to be mindless devotion and it doesn't have to be devotion to the government.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

If they get you to love the concept country, you will stop judging the actual acts of men.

Repeat for god, family, etc.



http://www.tribalmessenger.org/t-glo...n%20troops.jpg



Bush 'plotted to lure Saddam into war with fake UN plane'
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...icle342859.ece



http://www.feminist.org/images/pie.gif

Re: What is patriotism?
 

do Americans still have to "pledge Alliegance" to the flag every day before school? - or does that only happen in some schools.

That always struck me as a *really* stupid thing to get children to do every day.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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How do you define it?

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Easy. Check out the actions of the New York Times. Patriotism is the opposite of that.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

Patriotism has different meanings for different people. For example, republicans believe patriotism is supporting your country no matter what and believing everything the government tells you while never forming your own opinion.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

I would sum it up in one word. That word is loyalty.

Put whatever words you want after loyalty. To the constitution, to the ideals of the founders, whatever, but loyalty to those things that make your country what it is, and that is your home, for me is what patriotism means. I've thought long and hard about that.

There are a lot of people in this country who feel disaffected. But, what they don't realize is that there is nowhere else they can go in the world that will be like the US. This is it. It's all there is. If they want to make it better, than they have to participate in a positive way to do that. I'm not talking about participating politically, either. It can be in some other way. The more people participate, they more they will learn about why things are the way they are and if they are not right, than participation will empower people to contribute to changes that make it right.

I see lots of people who don't want to do what they need to do. They want to complain and criticize and that doesn't contribute anything positive, it only makes enemies.

There is supposed to be something magical about this country. There is supposed to be some mystical process by which everything turns out in the end. Between the market and the good will of the people, things are always supposed to get better. I don't see that working very much lately. I see it is strained, and hope it isn't broken. If it is, we really are screwed and it is pretty stupid to be patriotic, because what used to be isn't anymore.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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Education is dumb (although I'm not convinced it's that much better elsewhere), health care is expensive, drug laws are brutal, women have to be 18, drinkers have to be 21, we're more in debt than any country in the world, our citizens' average net worth is negative

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And why do think this is? Could it be a bankrupt political ideaology? Perhaps government interferrence in market efficiencies in the form of regulation? Take a shot.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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Germany and Japan were probably in a close race for number 1 around 1936, but that didn't turn out to be a very good thing.

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I dont know about Japan, and in Germany a public poll might have been very high on patriotism out of fear, but not true feelings about where they were headed.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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Patriotism has different meanings for different people. For example, republicans believe patriotism is supporting your country no matter what and believing everything the government tells you while never forming your own opinion.

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Dont speak for groups that you arent part of, because you are clueless (or lying) about what we believe.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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do Americans still have to "pledge Alliegance" to the flag every day before school? - or does that only happen in some schools.

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Every day in all of my school, both public and private.

I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE. TO THE FLAG. OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS. ONE NATION. UNDER GOD. INDIVISIBLE. WITH LIBERTY, AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.

I've done that so much that I've never thought much about what we've actually been saying, but it is seriously [censored] up come to think of it.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

The pledge should have been deleted eons ago.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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do Americans still have to "pledge Alliegance" to the flag every day before school? - or does that only happen in some schools.

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Every day in all of my school, both public and private.

I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE. TO THE FLAG. OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS. ONE NATION. UNDER GOD. INDIVISIBLE. WITH LIBERTY, AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.

I've done that so much that I've never thought much about what we've actually been saying, but it is seriously [censored] up come to think of it.

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some people would call that brainwashing...

here's an interesting article I found on my web travels

Re: What is patriotism? *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by andyfox

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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The pledge should have been deleted eons ago.

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your father should have had a vasectomy years ago.

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Was this necessary?

Re: What is patriotism?
 

I can see how you would not like America since you admitted you only make $2/hr as a waiter.

I'd be pissed off too.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

$2.75/hour, thank you very much.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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The pledge should have been deleted eons ago.

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your father should have had a vasectomy years ago.

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Was this necessary?

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Offensive statements need offensive responses, so yes, it was necessary.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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The pledge should have been deleted eons ago.

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your father should have had a vasectomy years ago.

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Was this necessary?

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Offensive statements need offensive responses, so yes, it was necessary.

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I think you should have just reported him to the IRS.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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The pledge should have been deleted eons ago.

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your father should have had a vasectomy years ago.

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Was this necessary?

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Offensive statements need offensive responses, so yes, it was necessary.

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I think you should have just reported him to the IRS.

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did that too [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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How/why Americans think this is the greatest country in the world (at WHAT?!?!) boggles my mind.

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We're the greatest at distrusting and/or outright loathing government, relatively speaking.

Is there another country you would prefer to live in?

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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How/why Americans think this is the greatest country in the world (at WHAT?!?!) boggles my mind.

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We're the greatest at distrusting and/or outright loathing government, relatively speaking.

Is there another country you would prefer to live in?

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OP said that we're the best at blindly kissing its arse as well. *shrug*

As for other countries, the only other one I've ever been to is Canada, and I really enjoyed it. There are pros and cons, and I'm not really sure where I'd rather live, but I do know that I'm not in a place in my life right now where I can really start touring the world and picking which country I'd like to live in. (Moving to a different country is a bit complicated)

Other than that, Switzerland and the Netherlands sound interesting, but again, I'm really not in a place to move right now.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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The pledge should have been deleted eons ago.

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your father should have had a vasectomy years ago.

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Was this necessary?

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Offensive statements need offensive responses, so yes, it was necessary.

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No, you made a personal attack against someone who wasn't even talking to you and didn't say anything warranting your comment. I believe that's against the rules here...

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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The pledge should have been deleted eons ago.

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your father should have had a vasectomy years ago.

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Was this necessary?

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Offensive statements need offensive responses, so yes, it was necessary.

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Political statement you disagree with = offensive and deserving of personal attack. Nice.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

One example is cheering for your home country's team in the World Cup.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

loyalty was the best description. the military is the one that pushes patriotism as they need to rally people so they can send them off to be killed or do their dirty work for pennies. if it wasnt for brainwashing young people, who in their right mind would go do the things they are ordered to do. the flag is a symbol to salute and is an old time thing from the past. in the pledge i thin k it was eisenhower that got god put in. all thru history god was not in the pledge but he got it in and now you are pressured to say it in grade school. the brainwasing of our youth starts early on. if you protest they label you as non patriotic. like you are some kind of creep.
who are the real creeps amoung us.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

"if you protest they label you as non patriotic. like you are some kind of creep.
who are the real creeps among us"

Former White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer said, after Bill Maher, called past U.S. military actions "cowardly" that "there are reminders to all Americans that they need to watch what they say, watch what they do, and this is not a time for remarks like that; there never is."

President Bush said, ""We must remember there is a difference between responsible and irresponsible debate -- and it's even more important to conduct this debate responsibly when American troops are risking their lives overseas. The American people know the difference between responsible and irresponsible debate when they see it. They know the difference between honest critics who question the way the war is being prosecuted and partisan critics who claim that we acted in Iraq because of oil, or because of Israel, or because we misled the American people. We also have an opportunity this year to show the Iraqi people what responsible debate in a democracy looks like. In a free society, there is only one check on political speech -- and that's the judgment of the people. So I ask all Americans to hold their elected leaders to account, and demand a debate that brings credit to our democracy -- not comfort to our adversaries."

Re: What is patriotism?
 

Bush said that? I'd never have guessed, it sounds so reasonable.

Still, Ari sounds more what I'd expect them to say.

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Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.

Hermann Goering

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Re: What is patriotism?
 

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loyalty was the best description. the military is the one that pushes patriotism as they need to rally people so they can send them off to be killed or do their dirty work for pennies. if it wasnt for brainwashing young people, who in their right mind would go do the things they are ordered to do. the flag is a symbol to salute and is an old time thing from the past. in the pledge i thin k it was eisenhower that got god put in. all thru history god was not in the pledge but he got it in and now you are pressured to say it in grade school. the brainwasing of our youth starts early on. if you protest they label you as non patriotic. like you are some kind of creep.
who are the real creeps amoung us.

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Ray, you make solid observations.

Check this out. It goes into what a child is actually put through:
http://www.freedomainradio.com/Traff...human_soul.mp3

Re: What is patriotism?
 

They can't "make" you say the pledge in public (state-funded) schools. But they don't exactly make this clear. They usually just tell you to stand and recite.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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if it wasnt for brainwashing young people, who in their right mind would go do the things they are ordered to do.

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What things are those Ray? I find this statement rather insulting and frankly, very disappointing considering the regard I hold you in for sharing your poker knowledge with us. Regardless of your feelings about the government or the current administration you ought to at least be somewhat glad that their are people willing to step up and "do the dirty work for pennies" as you so ridiculously put it.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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if it wasnt for brainwashing young people, who in their right mind would go do the things they are ordered to do.

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What things are those Ray? I find this statement rather insulting and frankly, very disappointing considering the regard I hold you in for sharing your poker knowledge with us. Regardless of your feelings about the government or the current administration you ought to at least be somewhat glad that their are people willing to step up and "do the dirty work for pennies" as you so ridiculously put it.

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Doesn't the military still try to brainwash people?

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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if it wasnt for brainwashing young people, who in their right mind would go do the things they are ordered to do.

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What things are those Ray? I find this statement rather insulting and frankly, very disappointing considering the regard I hold you in for sharing your poker knowledge with us. Regardless of your feelings about the government or the current administration you ought to at least be somewhat glad that their are people willing to step up and "do the dirty work for pennies" as you so ridiculously put it.

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Doesn't the military still try to brainwash people?

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Well feel free to elaborate on what you mean by brainwashing, but the short answer is no.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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if it wasnt for brainwashing young people, who in their right mind would go do the things they are ordered to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

What things are those Ray? I find this statement rather insulting and frankly, very disappointing considering the regard I hold you in for sharing your poker knowledge with us. Regardless of your feelings about the government or the current administration you ought to at least be somewhat glad that their are people willing to step up and "do the dirty work for pennies" as you so ridiculously put it.

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Doesn't the military still try to brainwash people?

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Well feel free to elaborate on what you mean by brainwashing, but the short answer is no.

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You might believe that you were not brainwashed but I'll bet any money you were. I'm not trying to attack you I'm just trying to point something out and I will give you some examples tomorrow if I find some time.

Hominems
 

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The pledge should have been deleted eons ago.

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Your father should have had a vasectomy years ago.

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Was this necessary?

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Offensive statements need offensive responses.

[/ QUOTE ]In other words, when you disagree with something another man supports so much that you find his ideas offensive, it is legitimate to attack the other mans personally.

I have asked Andy Fox to stop deleting such posts but he just won't listen. They are, by far, more eloquent and definite exhibits of a certain mindset than anything the opposition comes up with !

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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if it wasnt for brainwashing young people, who in their right mind would go do the things they are ordered to do.

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What things are those Ray? I find this statement rather insulting and frankly, very disappointing considering the regard I hold you in for sharing your poker knowledge with us. Regardless of your feelings about the government or the current administration you ought to at least be somewhat glad that their are people willing to step up and "do the dirty work for pennies" as you so ridiculously put it.

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Doesn't the military still try to brainwash people?

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Well feel free to elaborate on what you mean by brainwashing, but the short answer is no.

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You might believe that you were not brainwashed but I'll bet any money you were. I'm not trying to attack you I'm just trying to point something out and I will give you some examples tomorrow if I find some time.

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This ought to be interesting.

Re: What is patriotism?
 

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if it wasnt for brainwashing young people, who in their right mind would go do the things they are ordered to do.

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What things are those Ray? I find this statement rather insulting and frankly, very disappointing considering the regard I hold you in for sharing your poker knowledge with us. Regardless of your feelings about the government or the current administration you ought to at least be somewhat glad that their are people willing to step up and "do the dirty work for pennies" as you so ridiculously put it.

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Doesn't the military still try to brainwash people?

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Still? And what do you mean by brainwash? If you mean boot camp, where the "brainwashing" is about as severe as my fraternity initiation, no, they never did.

Re: Hominems *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by andyfox