Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

There are 2 dominant political parties in this country. Stand up and be counted. Which way do you usually vote?

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

Republican.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

I very foolishly voted Kerry in '04 (didn't matter, since vote wasn't counted).

I am never voting Democrat or Republican again. Neither have a principled ideology or a stated goal of any kind, nor do either have any actual policies that I like. (Bush has pretty much shown that the image of a low-tax small government conservative is a myth, they're just fascists) I don't believe that either is the lesser of two evils.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

Better question:

Who takes sides with the Democrat or Republican party (that is, who doesn't just vote for the lesser of two evils, but actually supports the ideologies of one of the main parties?

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

hmkpoker, finally something we can both agree on. Bush is not a conservative. It is disgusting the amount of money that has been spent.

I am a hybrid, LOL part libertarian part conservative. I like the idea of small tax = small government, although I personally don't like the idea of abortions, I'm not sure it's the federal government's place to tell a woman they can't. But, I also think that there are times when the U.S. needs to be involved in affairs overseas.

A link to the libertarian test http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

In response to hmkpoker's poll, I'd have to say I rarely fully support the Democratic party, but that doesn't mean some democrats aren't worth supporting on their own. Specifically I'm talking about Russ Feingold in the Senate and John Conyers in the House. In my opinion, nothing but upstanding gentlemen.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

Why bother supporting a candidate or party that has no chance to win any important position in government? If you refuse to pick the lesser of two evils all you do is give more weight to those who do.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

If I had to vote for either dems or republicans, I'd vote democrat, unless hilary clinton was running, because she's basically a [censored] fascist.

That said, I think the "two party" mentality is a very dangerous thing, and when I vote I generally vote libertarian.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

You do understand that voting for a 3rd party may be non-optimal in any current election, but serves as a meta-game vote for future elections?

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You do understand that voting for a 3rd party may be non-optimal in any current election, but serves as a meta-game vote for future elections?

[/ QUOTE ]

Highly doubtful

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why bother supporting a candidate or party that has no chance to win any important position in government? If you refuse to pick the lesser of two evils all you do is give more weight to those who do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why vote at all, you're only one teeny worthless individual...

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

Good one! I chose the 2nd option, BTW. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why bother supporting a candidate or party that has no chance to win any important position in government? If you refuse to pick the lesser of two evils all you do is give more weight to those who do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let's look at this strategically:

I hate Democrats and Republicans equally. I don't agree with either's ideologies. I don't see any way to determine which is the "lesser of two evils." I gain nothing from voting for either, except a wonderful feeling of guilt. There is no reason for me to vote Republicrat.

Furthermore, if I were to constrain myself to always voting for the lesser of two evils, and so do the majority of the voters, I/we have ensured that evil will always have power.

I also have another option: not voting. If there aren't any candidates that I like running in the election, and I don't even think the federal government structure should exist, why would I want to endorse it by voting? I'd much rather contribute to the real majority; the people who don't vote at all.

You can laugh and say that I'm throwing my vote away, but honestly, when is the last time your vote in a national election made a difference?

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why bother supporting a candidate or party that has no chance to win any important position in government? If you refuse to pick the lesser of two evils all you do is give more weight to those who do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why vote at all, you're only one teeny worthless individual...

[/ QUOTE ]

"Support" does not equal "vote". Donating thousands of dollars to a particular party or candidate is far more important than your single vote.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You do understand that voting for a 3rd party may be non-optimal in any current election, but serves as a meta-game vote for future elections?

[/ QUOTE ]

Highly doubtful

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a cute theory.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

Voting is irrational.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You do understand that voting for a 3rd party may be non-optimal in any current election, but serves as a meta-game vote for future elections?

[/ QUOTE ]

Highly doubtful

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the arguement that supporters of Nader in 2000 still make. According to their logic, the campaign of Ralph Nader gave us Howard Dean in 2004. Not sure if I agree.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You do understand that voting for a 3rd party may be non-optimal in any current election, but serves as a meta-game vote for future elections?

[/ QUOTE ]

Highly doubtful

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the arguement that supporters of Nader in 2000 still make. According to their logic, the campaign of Ralph Nader gave us Howard Dean in 2004. Not sure if I agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's far less of a reach to say that Nader's campaign in 2000 significantly hurt Gore, or that Perot's campaign significantly helped Clinton.
If you were an evironmentalist who supported Nader in 2000, you ended up with a far worse alternative for your important issues becuase you supported someone with no hope of ever getting elected.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You do understand that voting for a 3rd party may be non-optimal in any current election, but serves as a meta-game vote for future elections?

[/ QUOTE ]

Highly doubtful

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the arguement that supporters of Nader in 2000 still make. According to their logic, the campaign of Ralph Nader gave us Howard Dean in 2004. Not sure if I agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if it did, we are soooooo much the better for it. "Yaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

The Whigs won. And successful third parties have often forced significant real changes in the two big parties.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

3rd parties may have no chance in the presidential elections, but they might have a fighting chance in some smaller elections.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
And successful third parties have often forced significant real changes in the two big parties.

[/ QUOTE ]

Such as?

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Voting is irrational.

[/ QUOTE ]

So is life. Stop complaining.




In my opinion, everyone should be able to sell their vote on the open market. I think selling your vote to the highest bidder is, if not rational, at least profitable. It simply makes open what occurs in a more subtle way through the political process anyway.

-Zeno

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Voting is irrational.

[/ QUOTE ]

So is life. Stop complaining.




In my opinion, everyone should be able to sell their vote on the open market. I think selling your vote to the highest bidder is, if not rational, at least profitable. It simply makes open what occurs in a more subtle way through the political process anyway.

-Zeno

[/ QUOTE ]

Gotta give the Republicans some time to catch up marketing techniques if youre going to do that.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I very foolishly voted Kerry in '04

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Voting is irrational.

[/ QUOTE ]

So is life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Purple monkey dishwasher.

[ QUOTE ]
Stop complaining.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't a complaint. It was an observation.

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, everyone should be able to sell their vote on the open market. I think selling your vote to the highest bidder is, if not rational, at least profitable. It simply makes open what occurs in a more subtle way through the political process anyway.

-Zeno

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like selling your slot in the lynch mob to me.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

How many Republicans or Democrats out there actualy believe that US elections are fair and the guy that wins is the guy that most people voted for?

Before you answer I offer into evidence exhibit a)

Counting all the votes: why not? In America we don’t and that’s not much of an issue for any politician elected under the current system. THREE-MILLION, SIX-HUNDRED THOUSAND THREE-HUNDRED AND EIGHTY ballots were cast in the last election AND NEVER COUNTED: “spoiled” ballots, “provisional” ballots and “deficient” absentee ballots. And — ready for this — 88% of the ballots not counted were cast by voters of color.

This non-count doubled from the 2000 election and will double again for 2006 and 2008 unless we make it an issue. We are not getting the will of the people under
an apartheid voting system.

By the way, these figures are not from my black helicopter, but from data available from the United States Elections Assistance Commission. The racial calcs I did (I used to teach statistics) with professors from Cleveland State, Harvard and the US Civil Rights Commission. Not that you’d read about it in the US papers - source

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

I am sure Democrats and Republicans are guilty of vote rigging and statistically they probably cancel each other out.

Your data and/or source is incorrect concerning the votes cast by people of color. That level of consipracy is impossible to pull off.

The ability pull off a consipracy is inversely proportional to the number of people involved in the conspiracy.

Statistical reporting can easily be skewed by biased sampling, level of calculation, error of measurement, and political agenda.

If you really knew how statistics work you would not be throwing out a precise number such as 88% without including an error range.

Also, you cannot extrapolate the non-count vote with any degree of confidence for the next two elections based only on data since 2000.

You obviously know nothing about basic statistics and I feel sorry for any students you allegedly attempted to teach.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

Ignore matrix. First hes a chef whos worked with the greats in Europe, but insisted that salt lowers the boiling point of water, now hes a former statistics professor who doesnt have a clue about statistics.

Hes a liar and a troll.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It wasn't a complaint. It was an observation. Stop being an [censored].



[/ QUOTE ]

No. And your observation was not sound at all. Voting is not irrational.

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, everyone should be able to sell their vote on the open market. I think selling your vote to the highest bidder is, if not rational, at least profitable. It simply makes open what occurs in a more subtle way through the political process anyway.

-Zeno



Sounds like selling your slot in the lynch mob to me.

[/ QUOTE ]


Non sequitur.


-Yellow Monkey Snot.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You do understand that voting for a 3rd party may be non-optimal in any current election, but serves as a meta-game vote for future elections?

[/ QUOTE ]

meta-game analysis only works with observent game participants. Good luck finding that here in the old ol' U S of A.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ignore matrix. First hes a chef whos worked with the greats in Europe, but insisted that salt lowers the boiling point of water, now hes a former statistics professor who doesnt have a clue about statistics.

Hes a liar and a troll.

[/ QUOTE ]

You people are hilarious. The person who used to be a statistics professor is Greg Palast, the author of the quote matrix gave and put in italics to distinguish, complete with a link to the source at the bottom. For all your amazing arrogance you can't even read.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Voting is irrational.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there an arguement to be made that anti statists etc etc should allways vote against the incumbent/and or dominant political party of the moment. From your position the last thing you want is a radical Republicrat in controll of both houses with a massive mandate from the people in terms of public vote. Then we are talking optimum state intrusion time.

If no one party can gain controll of the political system and the government is changing every 5 years then this would seem like the optimal scenario for libertarians etc.

There would seem to be tactical reasons for libertarians and others of the same ilk to still vote.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ignore matrix. First hes a chef whos worked with the greats in Europe, but insisted that salt lowers the boiling point of water, now hes a former statistics professor who doesnt have a clue about statistics.

Hes a liar and a troll.

[/ QUOTE ]

rofl - it's great the way that people like Copernicus bash me at almost every available opportunity without actually making any argument counter to the points I am making - as though killing the messenger or sticking your fingers in your ears somehow nullifies the message.

For the record I am NOT an economics professor - nor have I ever claimed to be one - I suggest you learn to read correctly - perhaps even read the source article I linked to get a better view of the bigger picture before jumping to any conclusions....

I am a chef who (incorrectly) thought that salt lowered the boiling point of water (I am not a chemistry major either [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) - I have since changed my opinion on that now that I have better information on which to base my opinion.

I have worked with several "named" chefs I wouldn't say they are/were all "greats" in and around London - I have never worked in Europe outside of the UK, but I refuse to namedrop.

I would ask for Copernicus not to post juvenile personal attacks - and insist that he apologises for calling me a liar and a troll - as far as I am aware it's policy on twoplustwo not to post personal attacks, perhaps he hasn't read the FAQ, but IIRC Copernicus has me on ignore anyway so it would be a waste of time and bandwidth.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Your data and/or source is incorrect concerning the votes cast by people of color. That level of consipracy is impossible to pull off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I beg to differ.

My source is accurate - I hold Greg Palast in very high regard as an investigative journalist as do many other people.

[ QUOTE ]

You obviously know nothing about basic statistics and I feel sorry for any students you allegedly attempted to teach.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you never try teaching anyone how to read - I would feel sorry for any students you might allegedly attempt to teach.

[HINT: try reading the complete source article of which the text I posted in italics was a direct quote from.]

For your edification here is another quote from Mr Palasts website complete with accompanying link to complete source article (I'll put this all in italics so that people reading this who have more than an ounce of common sense will be able to tell easily that these words are quoted and not my own)

In the 2004 election, over THREE MILLION voters were challenged at the polls. No one had seen anything like it since the era of Jim Crow and burning crosses. In 2004, voters were told their registrations had been purged or that their addresses were “suspect.”

Denied the right to the regular voting booths, these challenged voters were given “provisional” ballots. Over a million of these provisional ballots (1,090,729 of them) were tossed in the electoral dumpster uncounted.

Funny thing about those ballots. About 88% were cast by minority voters.

This isn’t a number dropped on me from a black helicopter. They come from the raw data of the US Election Assistance Commission in Washington, DC.

At the heart of the GOP’s mass challenge of voters were what the party’s top brass called, “caging lists” — secret files of hundreds of thousands of voters, almost every one from a Black-majority voting precinct.

When our investigations team, working for BBC TV, got our hands on these confidential files in October 2004, the Republicans told us the voters listed were their potential “donors.” Really? The sheets included pages of men from homeless shelters in Florida.

Donor lists, my ass. Every expert told us, these were “challenge lists,” meant to stop these Black voters from casting ballots.

When these “caged” voters arrived at the polls in November 2004, they found their registrations missing, their right to vote blocked or their absentee ballots rejected because their addresses were supposedly “fraudulent.”

Why didn’t the GOP honchos ‘fess up to challenging these allegedly illegal voters? Because targeting voters of color is AGAINST THE LAW. The law in question is the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

The Act says you can’t go after groups of voters if you choose your targets based on race. Given that almost all the voters on the GOP hit list are Black, the illegal racial profiling is beyond even Karl Rove’s ability to come up with an alibi.

The Republicans target Black folk not because they don’t like the color of their skin. They don’t like the color of their vote: Democrat. For that reason, the GOP included on its hit list Jewish retirement homes in Florida. Apparently, the GOP was also gunning for the Elderly of Zion.

These so-called “fraudulent” voters, in fact, were not fraudulent at all. Page after page, as we’ve previously reported, are Black soldiers sent overseas. The Bush campaign used their absence from their US homes to accuse them of voting from false addresses.

Now that the GOP has been caught breaking the Voting Rights law, they have found a way to keep using their expensively obtained “caging” lists: let the law expire next year. If the Voting Rights Act dies in 2007, the 2008 race will be open season on dark-skinned voters. Only the renewal of the Voting Rights Act can prevent the planned racial wrecking of democracy. - source

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

I dont read matrix' posts. I was responding to one that said he was a stats professor.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

Write-in vote for libertarian.

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am sure Democrats and Republicans are guilty of vote rigging and statistically they probably cancel each other out.

Your data and/or source is incorrect concerning the votes cast by people of color. That level of consipracy is impossible to pull off.

The ability pull off a consipracy is inversely proportional to the number of people involved in the conspiracy.

Statistical reporting can easily be skewed by biased sampling, level of calculation, error of measurement, and <font color="blue">political agenda</font>.

If you really knew how statistics work you would not be throwing out a precise number such as 88% without including an error range.

Also, you cannot extrapolate the non-count vote with any degree of confidence for the next two elections based only on data since 2000.

You obviously know nothing about basic statistics and I feel sorry for any students you allegedly attempted to teach.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, trust me, blue is the best answer. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Check & Fold
 

[ QUOTE ]
I feel sorry for any students you allegedly attempted to teach.

[/ QUOTE ] If he was indeed a teacher, you'd have to apologize. Now that you realized he is not, what are you supposed to do ?

Re: Who is a Democrat and who is a Republican?
 

If I did vote (I don't and think it is a waste of time), I would vote for gridlock in all national elections. This country usually does best when Congress is controlled by one party and the presidency by the other.