Rio Single Table Satellites
 

Up to the $325 level, you get only 1500 chips. At the $525 you get 2000. Fast structures.

I think perhaps only the $1000 satellites offer good value.

Opinions?

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

They are an awesome value because the opponents are terrible (at least they were last year).

they play pretty much like a turbo.
I made pretty decent cash on those things.

Example hand from a $225 last year:
First level, maybe the 6th hand or so.
Blinds 25/25, 1500 starting chips.

UTG+1 raise 3x BB
MP cold-calls
Button goes all-in
UTG+1 insta-calls
MP folds

UTG+1 shows KJo
Button shows 77

Button doubles-up (and later it is just me and the button heads-up and we make a deal to split the prize)

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

I'm hoping it's like this Mr. Bob.

I'm heading to Vegas Thursday until Tuesday... mainly just for cash games and hanging out at the Rio, but I would REALLY love to play event #6 Saturday, $2000 NL.

Problem is I want to try to get in using >$500, and I'm hoping I can win one of these $225 sats. I'm gonna need to get real lucky.

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Problem is I want to try to get in using >$500

[/ QUOTE ]
This should be pretty easy to do [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

Are you serious? Two shots at the 225 and I have to win one... or some other method which I haven't devised yet.

Is there a better plan for increasing my odds of getting $2k in tourny chips?

EDIT: LOL, or you noticed I used a > rather than a < [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

Yeah. There's no way anyone could ever make any money playing fast-structure STT's against idiot opponents. 10% vig? No way these are beatable.

For those of you with a busted sarcasm detector, if you can beat the Party $10+1 Speeds, you can crush the WSOP satellites. Oh, and you have to be able to win as a 55/45 favorite at least 20% of the time.

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

Now the question. You have <500 to spend trying to get $2k in tournament chips. Which is the best method?

Two attempts at $225, must win?
Start at $115s or whatever and try to earn chances at the $225s/550s?

Save money and just play $225 second chance tourny at night?

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

The rake is the same no matter what level: $130 from the table. In this case, you're paying less rake with your 2 $225's. Just based on experience rather than solid experimentation, I'd say a decent SnG player can make it to the final two maybe 27.5% of the time, maybe 15% wins. Your Risk of Ruin is substantial at either level. It looks like you have to play as low as you can, at least until you win one. Then sell the chips and continue to buy into the lowest level possible until you have the four chips you need for the $2k event, selling them as you need to continue to buy in. You will end up paying more rake, but it looks necessary if you really want the best chance of continuing. Cut deals early in your quest. Deny them later. Don't play with durron597. That guy is a WSOP satellite luckbox.

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Now the question. You have <500 to spend trying to get $2k in tournament chips. Which is the best method?

Two attempts at $225, must win?
Start at $115s or whatever and try to earn chances at the $225s/550s?

Save money and just play $225 second chance tourny at night?

[/ QUOTE ]

Take your $500 to Caesars or Wynn and buy in to the NL1/2 or NL1/3 game. Play for 12 hours. Cash out $2000 and go enter the WSOP event.

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

I played in the last $1000 mega satellite last year before the main event. I think it started at 7p or 8p and didn't get over until 3 or 4 in the morning. The mega is a pretty good value if you can survive the first, oh let's say, 4 hours or so. The $200R are an art form in and of itself and I have friends who have picked up multiple seats in the past by showing up right before the break and buying in. They take about four hours to complete.

The single tables are an hour and a half investment and the players are generally horrible (myself included). Start small and if you think you are good at preflop poker then you can parlay the pink chips into something big. But it's a grind.

Harrah's makes a $130 for every single table satellite. The winner gets the lammers plus $120. The play is generally bad so if you are a decent short stack pre flop player, then it can be +EV

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

The single table satellites are great values. The $525 has the longest structure (I posted all the structures in the "wsop satellites" thread in this forum), but I think the smaller ones are the best value because the players seem to be so much worse. I've played them all, and the competition was MUCH tougher in the $525s than the $125-$275s. The competition in the small ones is analogous to that in $10-$30 Party sngs, although fewer people understand pushbotting at the end. Put differently, 3-4 people donk off money early (MicroBob's Kx v 77 hand isn't uncommon) and very few of the others know how to play short-handed. And good players routinely chop the prize pool when down to 2-3 players, so you can take out some of the crap shoot risk at the end.

It's worth the trip.

Hope this helps.

Edmond

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and you have to be able to win as a 55/45 favorite at least 20% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Son of a BITCH.

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and you have to be able to win as a 55/45 favorite at least 20% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Son of a BITCH.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahahaha

also, these STTs are reputedly awesome. i am going to just play them for profit and sell my chips afterwards. playing turbo STTs against very bad players with no understanding of ICM = $$$

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

Go to the blackjack tables and let it ride twice. In other words, bet the entire 500. If you double it up to a thousand, bet it again and then quit.

If you know basic strategy, you'll only have 1% negative EV. Much better than the 10% rake on a total crapshoot with 1000 starting chips and starting 25-25 blinds.

BTW, the 125ers start with only 800 in chips.

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

It's not even close to a crapshoot. Sure, the rake is not small and the structure is fast, but how bad can things be when people will routinely raise half their 6 BB stack and fold AKo when you push your 10 BB stack?

The 125's start with 1000 chips, eight 100's and eight 25's. If you started with 800 you either got ripped off or the whole table got caught in one of the marauding tornadoes of confusion that have been running wild around the satellite area lately.

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand how to play STTs with fast blind structures

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FYP

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

Oops, you're right. I was confusing the 125 with the 65 that they had initially. My bad.

The only time it's not a crapshoot is when the table is weak-tight, which seems like a third of the time. Its very easy to run over these people and control them with minraises preflop. But then the blinds are sky high before you know it. And they really don't deal that many hands in 15 minutes.

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

Never played a speed/turbo SNG I reck'n?

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

The 15 minute time limits at brick and mortar are probably equivalent to 4 minutes online because of the shuffling and the talking and the alarm clock button pushing by the dealer. Turbo SNGs usually start at 10-20 then 13-30 then 50-100 and son on. These live satellites start at 25-25 then 25-50 then 50-100. These are super mega turbo winner-take-all SNGs. Except that you can make deals and saves.

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

The structure is just awful. Way too few hands, way too fast blinds. VERY high on the luck scale.

I played one of the 1000-chip tables ($300 or so buy-in)down to 3 players. Roughly even stacks. One guy announces, "I don't chop."

Great, bonehead, that's the only reason to play these -- to wait out the riff-raff and then chop it up when only luck will decide the outcome. But hey, its your decision.

I bubbled by pushing A3o vs. Mr. Neverchop's Q7o call. And we were both making correct decisions on the hand. Its worse than the Poker Superstars II structure.

If you're any good (ANY good) at NLHE cash games, your buy-in has a much better chance of earning you some green at 1.5 hours of $2/5 NLHE, rather than 1.5 hours of the STTs. Trust me, the cash games there are good. Often great, if you have one or two young internet LAAAGs handing out chips at your table.

EDIT: after reading some of the other posts, I would agree that you might have good value in these STTs if your good opponents are willing to chop after you get rid of the bad players. But there is no guarantee of that happening.

Otherwise, it will be luck that decides your fate at the end against the good players. If your goal is to turn $500 into $2000, there's a high probability that the STT structure will eat up a 2-3 buy-in bankroll without cashing. If you can invest in a day of play with $500, go with the cash games.

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Go to the blackjack tables and let it ride twice. In other words, bet the entire 500. If you double it up to a thousand, bet it again and then quit.

If you know basic strategy, you'll only have 1% negative EV. Much better than the 10% rake on a total crapshoot with 1000 starting chips and starting 25-25 blinds.

BTW, the 125ers start with only 800 in chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably baccarat would be better place to do this. If you're dumb enough to do it.

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you serious? Two shots at the 225 and I have to win one... or some other method which I haven't devised yet.

Is there a better plan for increasing my odds of getting $2k in tourny chips?

[/ QUOTE ]

How about playing (if they still have them), the $50 stt. For $500, you will have 10 shots at these. The final two players in each tourney get a $225 tourney token. By playing 10 of these, you should finish in the top 2 at least 2 times statistically, and probably closer to 4 or 5 based on the low level of play.

You then take those 4 $225 tourney tokens and play 4 of the $225 stts.

Playing 4 of the $225stt, you should be able to chop a top two finish in one of them. Guaranteed? No. But, a chop in only one tourney would give you: 2 $500 tourney tokens and $60 bucks, (not including tipping).

Okay, so now you have $1000 in tourney chips. Save $100 in case you go busto, and have to go back slumming in the $50stts. You have 4 more shots at the $225, or 5 shots at the $175, (which pays 3 $500 tokens at $120 to a non-chopping winner), or even 7 shots at the $125 (2 $500 tokens and $120 to a non-chopping winner).

This is going to be my route. Last year I said screw the grind up and took my shot at the $375 immediately after the first $50 win. Final 4 players equal in chips. I push with my A/K in first position and get called by A/Qo and lose. Sigh.

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

idrinkcoors,

that sounds like a pretty solid strategy for sure -- the only problem is that it sounds like it'd take a while =/

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

[ QUOTE ]
idrinkcoors,

that sounds like a pretty solid strategy for sure -- the only problem is that it sounds like it'd take a while =/

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you have to have a couple of days. And I remember they stopped the small buy-in stt's fairly early at night. Nine or 10 p.m?

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
idrinkcoors,

that sounds like a pretty solid strategy for sure -- the only problem is that it sounds like it'd take a while =/

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you have to have a couple of days. And I remember they stopped the small buy-in stt's fairly early at night. Nine or 10 p.m?

[/ QUOTE ]

solely based on what i've read thus far, the 65s aren't running at this point(i.e. the lowest stt is 125). this is my understanding thus far, but i'll be there later tonight or tomorrow to confirm for myself.

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

Thanks for all the replies.

I had planned on using other money for cash games for most of the time that I wasn't at the Rio trying to satellite or hang out.

Now I'm thinking I may just go that route and avoid the extreme luck and possible throwing away of $225 by sticking to 2/5 at the Bellagio or whatever. See if I can grind it up to $2k and buyin if so.

Re: Rio Single Table Satellites
 

all of the satellites are gigantically +ev if you have any clue about playing with a 10x bb stack. everyone is a turbo idiot. ill go ahead and equate the 1ks to the 11s on party. holla

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

After playing 2 sats last night ($125s, which was the lowest they were running), I came to the conclusion that it would be much easier to make bank by going into the cash games.

As has been mentioned, the competition is weak, but on a short bankroll, running into idiots playing their hands wrong then sucking out on you, or not hitting your monster draw, isn't prudent, which happened both times to me, which was $250 down the drain - a $250 I could turn into $1000 putting in my time at the cash games.

Re: Rio Single Table Satellites
 

What's a healthy enough bankroll needed for the STT's for 5 weeks? 20 buy-ins? This is assuming you'll take at least half of your profits when up 4 figures to play in an event here and there.

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

[ QUOTE ]
As has been mentioned, the competition is weak, but on a short bankroll, running into idiots playing their hands wrong then sucking out on you, or not hitting your monster draw, isn't prudent, which happened both times to me, which was $250 down the drain - a $250 I could turn into $1000 putting in my time at the cash games.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should move up in stakes where they'll respect your bets and raises more.

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As has been mentioned, the competition is weak, but on a short bankroll, running into idiots playing their hands wrong then sucking out on you, or not hitting your monster draw, isn't prudent, which happened both times to me, which was $250 down the drain - a $250 I could turn into $1000 putting in my time at the cash games.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should move up in stakes where they'll respect your bets and raises more.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

Re: Rio Single Table Satellites
 

Show up with 20 buy-ins. If you bust, you either suck or ran about 95th percentile cold.

Re: Rio single-table satellites are a pretty bad value, eh?
 

I'm finally back in Vegas after a month in Philly, SC, and NC visting friends and family. After I relax for a little bit, I'm heading over there to play a few of these.

Re: Rio Single Table Satellites
 

Disclaimer: This is all just my opinion. Don't blame me when someone wins eight consecutive coin flips and you go home empty-handed.

Deals:

So after getting HU in two of the lower buy-ins (125 and 175), I've developed a few thoughts about deals in the WSOP satellites. All of my experience has been low-level, but unless some of you have experience to the contrary, everything I've heard makes me think it will apply at higher levels.

1) Most of your opponents are worse than you are. They are tourists, wannabe "pros," or low-limit internet players looking for a big score. They are risk averse. As such, you should not be willing to accept anything less than a chips chop under any circumstances.

2) The satellites pay out in $500 buy-in chips, anywhere from two to a whole rack. All of them pay out a small amount of cash, usually $120-150, that can help slosh deal-making around a little bit. It is not trivial to get cash for a chip unless one of the players involved agrees to do it. I can't imagine trying to run around with a complete stranger selling a single $500 buy-in chip when no events are running. Pain in the butt... Now what this means is, unless someone is willing to break a chip, deals are discrete in increments of $500, +-$120.

3) Your risk-averse opponents may let you lock up your equity while still playing for some of theirs. Push hard for these types of deals. An example would be if your opponent had a 2:1 chip lead in a $175 (three chips+$120 cash), and you offered to save one chip each and play for the rest. You've locked up all but $40 of your equity and left $580 of your opponent's on the table. You are wagering $40 against $580 as a 2:1 dog. That's a great bet for you. The break-even deal is where you both lock up the same percentage of your equity, not the same $ amount.

4) If you are unsure, decline. Don't get confused. You will never lose money by playing it out if you absolutely cannot figure out if a deal offered by an equally-clueless opponent is good for you or not.

5) If you can break a chip with cash you have on hand, or can easily sell a chip whereas your opponent can't, use this to your advantage. Say you're even in chips, you can offer to chop a 275 (5 chips and $120 cash) as 5 chips to you, $1120 in cash to your opponent. It sounds stupid, but don't be afraid to offer a deal you'd never take yourself.

6) If you don't trust yourself to figure this all out on the fly, write down potential chops for the buy-in before you play. That way, you'll know where to draw the lines.

Anyways, have fun in these. Remember, ABP... Always Be Pwning.

Re: Rio Single Table Satellites
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine trying to run around with a complete stranger selling a single $500 buy-in chip when no events are running.

[/ QUOTE ]


This really isn't a problem.
The tourney-chips are insanely easy to sell.

You don't have to wait for an 'event' to be running.
You can just sell them at another STT (if they still do it the same way).

Very easy to find a $1050 STT and sell them there. I sold a couple of mine to Scott Fischman last year.


Other parts of your advice were very good.
Even if I felt I was better than my opponent I was more than happy to take a 50/50 or 33/33/33 split for a deal if I was behind even just the smallest amount in the tourney.

But you do need to be prepared to go heads-up if the other guy isn't willing to make a deal.

And it may actually be advantageous to turn down reasonable deals if you think your opponent will be super-bad at heads-up OR you think that the opponent may get bothered and/or tiltish if you refuse to deal (since it's practically expected most of the time).

Re: Rio Single Table Satellites
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine trying to run around with a complete stranger selling a single $500 buy-in chip when no events are running.

[/ QUOTE ]
This really isn't a problem.
The tourney-chips are insanely easy to sell.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not really worried about selling chips myself, but a tourist from Wisconsin might not know how to go about it. It's not so much a reality as a negotiation tactic, but perception is reality, right? Also, I'm paranoid about hit-and-run counterfeit operations, on both the currency and chip side.

Re: Rio Single Table Satellites
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I'm paranoid about hit-and-run counterfeit operations, on both the currency and chip side.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one issue that has surprised me after I recently moved to Vegas.

Nobody seems to pay the slightest attention to the actual appearance of the chips and Benjamins that flood the town. If it's green and white piece of paper and says $100 in the corner, that seems to be good enough. Or if it's a chip that's mostly yellow with some other random colors mixed in, then it must be worth $1000.

Maybe the cashiers have some super high tech top secret method, but it sure doesn't seem like it. As for bartenders, etc., fuggetaboutit.

Of course, since everyone here uses Benjamins to wipe their... what I mean to say is, since people here don't seem to have all that much respect for a measly $100 bill, I guess it's not that surprising.

Re: Rio Single Table Satellites
 

I know there's been some discussion on whether or not you can buy into sng's with tourney chips. I was there today and the latest is that you can use them, but only on the $500+ buyins.

Re: Rio Single Table Satellites
 

Yeah, that occured to me too when I was there. A good counterfeiter would be able to have a field-day in Vegas. Although it wouldn't have to be at the WSOP-Rio. It could be anywhere.

Evidently it hasn't proven to be too much of a problem otherwise they would actually take more significant measures against it.


Then I go to the grocery-store or something here in Memphis and they are running that special-ink highlighter on each $20 bill I have given them to make sure the bills are legit and it just seems really silly to me.


To ensure (somewhat at least) against counterfeit operations:
You sell the chips to somebody who is just about to hand his money to the dealer.
If you're off in the corner somewhere then he could be digging into his pocket to find his 'special' counterfeit bills for the chip-exchange.

But if you're getting them when he's at the actual table and about to buy-in then it's roughly about the same chance of him cheating the casino.
Additionally, if the bills are so good that you can't tell the difference then it probably doesn't matter. You would be able to use them elsewhere in Vegas anyway probably.


I wouldn't be too worried about counterfeiting and stuff like that.
Then again, I'm one of those ignorant/less-worldly midwesterners who might be more susceptible to such schemes.

Re: Rio Single Table Satellites
 

I just got back, played 1 $125 and finished 3rd ( [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] ), and played a $175 afterwards and chopped when we got HU, taking $1000 in lammers and $80 cash, giving the other guy $500 in lammers and $40 cash.

Hopefully I'll have time to go back tomorrow to win another $1000 so I can play the $2000 event coming up.