I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

Not to steal LFT's thunder, but after he started up his "Imaginary WSOP Hand" threads, I found myself dreaming of hypothetical hands at night. There is one, in particular, that really bothers me. I think this one bothers me because I) I am not entirely comfortable playing deep-stacked, II) My biggest fear is going broke on the first hand, and III) I never know what's the best way to play against unknowns.

So, would love to hear how you guys play this hand.

First damn hand of the Main Event. You're obviously excited to be at your first WSOP. You recognize no one at your table. Villain in this hand is wearing a Party Poker tee-shirt. Blinds are 25/50.

You look down at red Kings in the CO. Folded to UTG+1 who raises to 150, UTG+2 calls, and it's folded to you. You reraise to 850. UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls. 1925 in the pot.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. UTG+2 checks, you bet 1350. UTG+2 now raises to 4500. Besides puking, what's your move?

Note: You are not Phil Hellmuth.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

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Note: You are not Phil Hellmuth.

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Whew!?!

Glad to see your not dreaming about Phil Hellmuth.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

I've been thinking about all these type of situations too. I think I would actually check behind the flop to exercise pot control. I'm not trying to go broke on the first hand with 200 BB and one pair. Obv. an ace or club on the turn sucks, but I hate the situation the bet puts you in worse. As played, I fold the flop.

I would bet the flop with 2 opponents, because it's more likely that the turn would turn my winner into a loser. The only hand where villain trails us on the flop and has more than a 25% chance of catching us on the turn is ace-suited of clubs, so I'm OK giving a card for free to greatly increase my chances of getting to showdown.

My plan for the turn is to bet 1200 if checked to, and to call a bet unless the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] falls.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

Yea, same thoughts for me too the past couple days. I'd almost definitely fold that one.

This one's a slight variation on everybody's ole' favorite - "first hand of WSOP with AA": First hand of the main event, you're in the BB. Folded around to the SB who is wearing a Pokerchamps hat and t-shirt and goes all-in. You look down at red kings.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

Reraise less preflop, to like 600. Fold to the flop raise, he's an internet qualifier just like you and probably is not looking to put in half his stack with a worse overpair. Best case scenario you're looking at some big combo draw that you're flipping against, worst case scenario you're drawing to two outs.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

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Reraise less preflop, to like 600.

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Let's talk about this...

Doesn't doing this make it even harder for me to figure out his range? Also, don't we lose more pots because of the smaller raise simply because Villain can now correctly call with almost anything that he raised with?

I have a feeling your response will be "Yeah, but we control the pot size, which is more important in deep stack poker," but consider this. Raising to 600 gives UTG+1 over 2:1 odds to call. 3:1 if he assumes that UTG+2 is calling. Chances are, he will call this given the nearly infinite implied odds. Same goes for UTG+2.

So our attempt to control pot size now has us in roughly the same sized pot, against two opponents, with less clarity about their hand ranges.

I understand where you're coming from, and the thought of your line definitely crossed my mind. I'm just not sure it actually accomplishes what it is intended to accomplish.

Anyway, curious to hear a response.

edit: Agree with the flop fold, though. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

Didn't see the coldcaller. Ok, preflop is fine. I'd go with 750, but whatever.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

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I think I would actually check behind the flop to exercise pot control.

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Anyone have thoughts on this?

My immediate reaction is that, aside from getting sucked out on occasionally, I think a decent amount of turn cards are either I) tough to play correctly or II) action killers against hands like 99-QQ, 89s, A8s, etc.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

i think checking the flop is bad/dream results oriented. you get called by a lot of hands you're dominating (99-QQ), and reraised by very few of them (those dudes aren't trying to get broke with JJ on this flop either).

my pf rr would be to like 700 or so, btw. dump the flop to the raise.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

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dream results oriented

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Nice!

I agree with what Pat/mlagoo said.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

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I think I would actually check behind the flop to exercise pot control.

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Anyone have thoughts on this?

My immediate reaction is that, aside from getting sucked out on occasionally, I think a decent amount of turn cards are either I) tough to play correctly or II) action killers against hands like 99-JJ, 89s, A8s, etc.

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I dislike checking this flop because its so coordinated, if he was calling with a suited connector we're giving him infinite odds to hit a gutshot/openender and have no clue where we stand. What do we do if he pots a blank turn? what do we if he pots a 7? or a club? Furthermore, if you get checkraised on the first hand of the WSOP by an unknown internet qualifier for half a stack, its more than likely that he beats one pair, so you dont have to worry about getting bluffed off the best hand IMHO. Execute pot control on a later street, not on this flop.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

Dump the hand on hte flop. There is little reason to risk half of your stack on the first hand on a flop like that.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

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Dump the hand on hte flop. There is little reason to risk half of your stack on the first hand on a flop like that.

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Is this serious? What hands did this flop improve?

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

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Dump the hand on hte flop. There is little reason to risk half of your stack on the first hand on a flop like that.

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Is this serious? What hands did this flop improve?

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Not many at all. We are ahead most of this time. But when I get checked-raised for 4500 (we start with 10k right?) , I am going to look for a better spot to double up then with 1 pair

Edit: NVM I misread the reraise. I push

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

Seems less likely to be a set and more likely to be an overpair. That being said there are few drawing hands, but this flop is not very scary for a caller of a raise and a REraise (preflop).

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

Well, if your kings aren't beat, your opponent is an idiot. Dangerous assumption to make on the first hand.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

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Well, if your kings aren't beat, your opponent is an idiot. Dangerous assumption to make on the first hand.

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but...

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Villain in this hand is wearing a Party Poker tee-shirt.

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[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

Agreed. Tricky situation. Good thing it's only a dream. Now, wake up.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

We all need to find out the following:

How many 2+2'ers qualified through PartyPoker. How many qualifiers total Party is sending to WSOP. This is absolutely essential information that many of us will need at some point during the tournament.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

Related to the last post, what you are really asking is "What is the ratio of tricky and/or reasonable TAGs to total idiots at this year's WSOP?"

Answer: "Enough for me to go broke here and feel good about it."

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

my first response is the same, keep the pot smaller. 700 is the max to raise here, although I would be reraising to 600 total...

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

First hand is 25/25 but let's say it's first hand at 25/50 and you have no read.

With 200XBB hero should be very concerned about making the 2nd best hand. I'd try and keep the pot small.

PF raise of 500-600. I'd also consider not raising at all and playing it strong ATF (probably my preference here).

If I raised PF then ATF I'd probably check behind. The flop is very coordinated for a speculative hand. The flop clearly didn't hit hero, and villain should expect to be able to move hero off many hands with a c/r. Many drawing hands want to assert there FE at the flop.

It looks a little w/t. Hero is giving equity to avoid going broke in the hand with so many chips behind. Unless a big card comes off villain will want to get payed if he flopped big and lay in the weeds - usually.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

locutus,

this + not raising PF in EP ever = you will very quickly be in the comforts of the red zone.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

there is no 25/25 level in ME.

fwiw with a field this big i go broke. you need to accumulate and i think you are ahead of the average party qualifiers range. just because its a 10k event i dont think you should play weak but i guess if you want to experience the WSOP and not win it then you can fold.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

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Related to the last post, what you are really asking is "What is the ratio of tricky and/or reasonable TAGs to total idiots at this year's WSOP?"

Answer: "Enough for me to go broke here and feel good about it."

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Adanthar,

I dunno.

Let's just say his range preflop for calling our 3bet is AK, 22-AA, and some random suited connectors/two broadways. Cool.

After his flop C/R, we can almost certainly eliminate any AK/broadway type hands from his range. There will be a few suited connectors that hit very strong that are in his range. There will also be sets (obviously), and overpairs -- but I don't think all overpairs. I think 99-TT either call or fold most of the time, even by "the everydonk."

This is also an online qualifier who opted to wear a t-shirt to pay for his hotel, which means he is going to be a little more weak-tight than the average dude that buys in for $10k. Which I think strengthens the idea that he isn't doing this with 99/TT.

So essentially what we're hoping is that villian has exactly JJ-QQ, or some sort of suited connector that we'd be even money with. As opposed to (the much more likely in my opinion) set/AA.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

I dunno, I put his range at like...any draw, top pair, A5, A3, he misread his hand, he thinks QQ is the nuts, he thinks he can take you off AA because this is the first hand and besides QQ is the nuts...

I feel like underestimating the intelligence of a Party donk is not as likely as overestimating it. It's not like I'm the Superchamp of Poker, I just win money because other people suck at it.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

mlagoo. he can have broadway clubs too. i dont think ur point about him being weak tight is necesarilly true either

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

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I dunno, I put his range at like...any draw, top pair, A5, A3, he misread his hand, he thinks QQ is the nuts, he thinks he can take you off AA because this is the first hand and besides QQ is the nuts...

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meh, I just really disagree. i just don't think the random online qualifier (ESPECIALLY one that elects to wear the t-shirt) is going to be "making moves" for half of his chips on the first hand of the tourney. i agree that eventually they'll get impatient/bored and A5/middle pair becomes the nuts, but not on the first hand.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

You'd be surprised how many chips 200XBB is in this structure.

I didn't know that about level 1 in the WSOP (25/50).

The red zone for many players is 6 hours away. I intend to still be playing at that point. I play this structure of tournament (minus the field size) several nights a week, KK just doesn't play well in level 1, and big pairs only play well BTF, which isn't very important in this type of poker. Personally I think smooth calling BTF and having the option of representing 67 or 2clubs is much better than raising when 1/2 of your holding are likely to be large pairs. The value of keeping your range wide is worth more than the chips - to me.

Anyone who'd bet and dump on the flop isn't that clever either.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

So you guys want the results??? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Glad there is some dissent in this discussion. As I told woodguy earlier today (after the ruler up the ass comment), without dissent, these boards pretty much suck.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

runner runner KK [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

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I dunno, I put his range at like...any draw, top pair, A5, A3, he misread his hand, he thinks QQ is the nuts, he thinks he can take you off AA because this is the first hand and besides QQ is the nuts...

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meh, I just really disagree. i just don't think the random online qualifier (ESPECIALLY one that elects to wear the t-shirt) is going to be "making moves" for half of his chips on the first hand of the tourney. i agree that eventually they'll get impatient/bored and A5/middle pair becomes the nuts, but not on the first hand.

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Agree 100%. Although many opponents will be willing to light $100 on fire because they "put you on AK," they aren't going to do it in the biggest tournament, and highlight, of their poker career.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

I think one factor which we are all missing is the online qualifier's mindset.

How many of them do you think want to go home on the first hand? After building it up for months and months and months and finally sitting down, do you seriously think many of them would feel comfortable reraising here with much less than a set? MAYBE QQ-AA, but in all liklihood he has hit his hand, is trying to make sure he doesn't get drawn out on by check-raising here.

If you are talking about cEV, well, maybe it's close against a range here. Maybe he has lots of draws a certain amount of time.

BUT.... are you ready to think about this hand for the rest of your life after you put your entire main event life on the line with one pair?

If so, then great. I think it's marginal, and using the PartyPoker T-Shirt as an excuse to make it sort of +cEV is just asking for disaster.

1) Random online pro doesn't want to go home first hand
2) You have 160BB's and can play tons more poker and put the pressure on others in much better situations
3) You have one pair against a random opponent who just called a reraise under the gun and check-raised you on the flop.

I'd fold to the check-raise, and I'd probably check behind on the flop. This is based on the fact that I would want to experience more poker in the tournament, but in general I don't think it's a bad line so early in a deep-stack tourney.

Brad

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

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I dunno, I put his range at like...any draw, top pair, A5, A3, he misread his hand, he thinks QQ is the nuts, he thinks he can take you off AA because this is the first hand and besides QQ is the nuts...

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"he misread his hand" hahahahahaha

Anyway, I dont understand this whole "shirt reading" idea...you're really saying that party poker shirt=hotel user=weak tight? wtf? Now I'm going to stress even more about what to wear to play poker, damn.

I think for a lot of people, they will see their WSOP seat as a chance to have fun and take a shot, and will be willing to gamble and make big plays. I think a 2+2er would be more likely to be "weak-tight" (as defined as unwilling to go broke with a marginal hand early) then a random internet qualifier would be. I would really loathe this situation, but in a big online tourney I rarely give credit to people this early, because theres so many idiots willing to go broke. So I'd probably push and pray.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

So what you guys are saying is that I should call every PFR, then CR in the dark.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

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So what you guys are saying is that I should call every PFR, then CR in the dark.

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yes adanthar, because the actions your opponent will take on the first hand of the tournament are obviously the same ones they will take after seeing you make the same play several times over.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

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So what you guys are saying is that I should call every PFR, then CR in the dark.

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Andanthar,

Playing against you UTG on the first hand of the Main Event and a random internet player is entirely different.

And try and put yourself in a position where the buy-in is more than your bankroll. That will help a little too.

Brad

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

If the donk knows what hes doing wouldnt he after he raised and got action with his aces just smooth call and hope to put the move on ya now, making more money then just reraising the flop to 2k and you chucking the KK at this point as he obviously has AA...so thats perfect for this scenario...Im 50/50 here, I try for some physical tell and let that make up my mind....

or

if he was [censored] retard as we are assuming based on clothing wouldnt he have probably raised more than 3bb initially as hes an idiot and then def reraised poss to something insane like 3k+ or even All in as hes soooo nervous and wants to protect his AA so he can flip em over and say "Good fold, can you believe AA first hand of the WSOP ME"....

....If I do fold, I definatley show the fold in hopes to start working a table image I use to my advantage later.

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

OK, so does this hand become more or less interesting if we replace Party-Poker-shirt-boy with:

I) Phil Ivey
II) Phil Hellmuth
III) Mike Matusow
IV) adanthar

Re: I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...
 

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....If I do fold, I definatley show the fold in hopes to start working a table image I use to my advantage later.

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i would never ever show this fold.