Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

I am about to play a poker tournament that will start in 5 minutes. I get a 5 dollar match play, sit down and plan on only playing 1 hand. Guy at the table is putting 75-100 on 1 hand. I am reading off a black jack strategy card. I get scolded by other players at the table for reading off my card and playing a 5 dollar hand while other players are spending lots more. I tell the guy to relax and leave the table.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

It's your money, and eventually the casino will get it all. Do whatever you want. It's not a team game and these morons that believe you mess up some mystical order of shoe, when it's random to begin with, will always talk [censored] unless they get a blackjack. Then they get pissed because they dropped to table minimum because you screwed up their cards and they got a blackjack. I hate bj players more than anything else. They're all too superstitious for their own good. Now if any of them actually knew there was mathwork involved in every decision, they'd probably never play the game again.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am about to play a poker tournament that will start in 5 minutes. I get a 5 dollar match play, sit down and plan on only playing 1 hand. Guy at the table is putting 75-100 on 1 hand. I am reading off a black jack strategy card. I get scolded by other players at the table for reading off my card and playing a 5 dollar hand while other players are spending lots more. I tell the guy to relax and leave the table.

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Yeah you are sort of being a douchebag, but everyone has to be a douchebag sometimes. Just be polite and get out of there as soon as possible. It's one of those things where they are stupid for caring, but they do care and there isn't a whole lot of reason to at least respect that they care.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

Many large-bet regular BJ players will consider entering mid-shoe to make a small bet to be rude. It's stupid because your play doesn't affect them but that's the way it is. Next time find an empty table, a table with small bettors or wait until after the tourney when you can find these conditions if you can't find them right away.

Or you can just think 'To heck with them! I'll never see them again, anyway!' That works also.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

My favourite play is making a small bet and hitting on something stupid like 18 or 19 and busting then watching the people who have big bets down get so upset because they think it makes a difference.. What can I say, I'm an ass

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am about to play a poker tournament that will start in 5 minutes. I get a 5 dollar match play, sit down and plan on only playing 1 hand. Guy at the table is putting 75-100 on 1 hand. I am reading off a black jack strategy card. I get scolded by other players at the table for reading off my card and playing a 5 dollar hand while other players are spending lots more. I tell the guy to relax and leave the table.

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Yeah you are sort of being a douchebag, but everyone has to be a douchebag sometimes. Just be polite and get out of there as soon as possible. It's one of those things where they are stupid for caring, but they do care and there isn't a whole lot of reason to at least respect that they care.

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I've got a different read. THEY are all being sort of douchebags. What you are doing is harmless.
They are stupid for caring. There is no reason to respect their stupidity or their douchebaggieness.
Black Jack players are whacked. I think it is inherent.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

Blackjack players have there things just like poker players do. I mean when playing live, the dealer makes a mistake and misdeals for whatever reason. How many players look to see what they have, then get upset when they see AA and have to turn them back in? It's the same thing in my mind.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

If you're slowing down the game because you're reading the strategy card, then yeah, you are being at the very least an inconvenience.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

I'd much rather have someone playing by the book off a strat card then doing stupid crap like staying on 15 and 16 with a face card showing.
The mid-shoe entry thing is a touch subject. I always ask first before I do and it doesn't bother me to wait if people care. However whenever anyone asks me I dont care at all since the cards are all random. Even if your counting it doesn't matter, the count is still the same.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

How do you say this:

I'd much rather have someone playing by the book off a strat card then doing stupid crap like staying on 15 and 16 with a face card showing.

and then this?
I dont care at all since the cards are all random

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

If you have 16 and the dealer shows 10, the EV of hitting is almost the same as standing. It is so close that the true optimal play really depends on the card composition (do you have a total of 16 with just two cards, or with 4?), and the count. There is a detailed analysis in Griffin (The Theory of Blackjack) somewhere, I don't remember exactly where. I do remember offhand though that any time the count is favorable, it is correct to stand; any time the count is unfavorable OR NEUTRAL, it is correct to hit. So if you had to pick one, that's why it is "hit on 16", because of the neutral case.

A quick google found this wizardofodds.com article: http://wizardofodds.com/askthewizard/57

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

Witzo,

"I'd much rather have someone playing by the book off a strat card then doing stupid crap like staying on 15 and 16 with a face card showing."

Why does it bother you if someone stays on a 15 when the dealer has a face card showing?

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

Blackjack players and their fuzzy "math" kill me. I even know a couple decent poker players, who understand odds, random-ness of the deck etc, and they still swear that one "bad" blackjack player messes up the deck.

I always like to ask the question, so if this amateur hits when he shouldn't and "messes up the deck" but all the other players hit black jack and the dealers busts on the next hand, do you still blame him then? If by randomly taking one card out of the deck, he gives the dealer a good card, then by that same logic, wouldn't he just as often give the dealer a bad card? They hate those questions and never give honest replies.

Logic is not something most serious blackjack players seem to have.lol

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

You normally ask the table if they would mind you entering mid-shoe. Usually the table won't object. I always wait for a new show before getting in, but it's more of a personal preference than anything else. Also, I would be glad to see someone taking a minute to look at a basic strategy card, instead of spending that time pondering whether or not the feel lucky.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

Actually, I rather like the guy reading the strategy card. In fact, if there's anyone at the table with one, I'll keep asking them for advice on my hand.

Why?

Because it's a losing game. The best way to slow down your long-term loss rate is to slow the game down, period. In the long run, more hands played=more money lost, therefore play fewer hands.

Which doesn't stop me from playing the game, 'cause at a low stakes table with a rack of gregarious poods, it can be a heck of a fun game. Unfortunately, one sourpuss superstitious rude drunk can ruin the whole thing.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

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If you're slowing down the game because you're reading the strategy card, then yeah, you are being at the very least an inconvenience.

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the people who argue that because they are all being douches for carng so its ok would also argue that slowing down a -EV game is in their best interest.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

They are the rude ones. Pay no attention to them.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

I don't play blackjack, so my explanation could be off. But from my understanding this is why you were given a hard time. If I am wrong or used the wrong terminology, someone else please jump in. I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this yet:

The player may have been counting (or he thought he was counting which seems to be more common). Counters wait for a shoe that is "rich" in tens so they have more favorable odds. They will manipulate their bet size when they are getting the best of it, but in order for them to know they have this advantage they must also assume their fellow players are practicing basic strategy or their count can be off. So if they suddenly go from $100 a hand to $500 its because the conditions are now favorable, but one extra card requested, or if you split a hand that normally shouldn't be split might mess with their ability to catch that ten. Yes its a lot of voodoo, but at least there is a modest amount of math behind their superstition.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

TT,

you make valid points, counters dont like extra players eating cards in a high count. on the other hand counters don't sit at full tables very often, and the # of bad BJ players that believe a new player "messes up the flow of the cards" outnumber counters about 10000000000:1. maybe I'm exaggerating but it's close.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't play blackjack, so my explanation could be off. But from my understanding this is why you were given a hard time. If I am wrong or used the wrong terminology, someone else please jump in. I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this yet:

The player may have been counting (or he thought he was counting which seems to be more common). Counters wait for a shoe that is "rich" in tens so they have more favorable odds. They will manipulate their bet size when they are getting the best of it, but in order for them to know they have this advantage they must also assume their fellow players are practicing basic strategy or their count can be off. So if they suddenly go from $100 a hand to $500 its because the conditions are now favorable, but one extra card requested, or if you split a hand that normally shouldn't be split might mess with their ability to catch that ten. Yes its a lot of voodoo, but at least there is a modest amount of math behind their superstition.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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This has nothing to do with it. They are just superstitious goons. But that doesn't mean they don't deserve respect.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

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TT,
the # of bad BJ players that believe a new player "messes up the flow of the cards" outnumber counters about 10000000000:1. maybe I'm exaggerating but it's close.

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You are probably not exaggerating. Isn't it amazing how everyone who plays BJ knows how to count yet their basic strategy always is wrong?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

Sometimes people play wild and everybody wins, sometimes people play wild and everybody loses... you didn't do anything wrong - these people were probably busy losing their asses and needed something to blame it on besides the dealer they had probably been yelling things at for the last x number of shoes they'd been losing on. I welcome anyone with a strategy card at the table I'm playing at - it helps them make the best decision to try and make money on that hand. Remember, playing blackjack is foremost about YOU winning money, then if the rest of the table wins, we all get drunk and high five and have a good time and it's fun.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

If I'm counting a shoe and the count is getting high toward the middle of that shoe and the dealer let you in, I would simply ask the dealer not to let you in until the next shoe and spout off something superstitious. I had to play through the -EV hands to get the shoe high, and I don't need you coming in late and helping me burn through the extra tens and aces faster. If I "earned" the high count (via playing through the lousy count), I would like to reap the benefit of the +EV I paid for. I wouldn't be rude, but I would certainly ask, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy your $5 match play from you.

Not all blackjack players are idiots, but even the good ones pretend to be from time to time. It's really not that much different from acting in poker.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am about to play a poker tournament that will start in 5 minutes. I get a 5 dollar match play, sit down and plan on only playing 1 hand. Guy at the table is putting 75-100 on 1 hand. I am reading off a black jack strategy card. I get scolded by other players at the table for reading off my card and playing a 5 dollar hand while other players are spending lots more. I tell the guy to relax and leave the table.

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snake, if the BJ table was a $5 min bet, then tell those other players to F-off. If they're "smart" enough to make $100 bets at a $5 min table, then they should EXPECT they'll get the $5 goof-off bets along side of their "big" $100 bet. Anyone who plays enough BJ should know this.

Now of course, if it was a $25 min bet table, then you were at the wrong place.

btw, how did the poker tourney go?

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

Its a $5 min table and it was the only black-jack table in the casino. I even asked before I played if he minds if I jump in for just 1 hand to use my match play. The high roller said "sure", so I put my match play down and hoped lady luck was on my side.

When I was playing, I got some sort of hand that I needed to hit...I hit then got a deuce and I was not sure whether or not I should hit again, so I check my black jack strategy card it tells me to hit so I do then I bust. The guy who is friends with the highroller (sitting right next to him) blurts out "is that a strategy card?", you should not be playing here there is a lot of money on the line" . He is like yelling at me, so I just tell him to relax...then I go over to the poker section. Its only a 5 dollar match play that the casino gives out to all the people who enter the casino but it expires the day they give it out and I had time so I wanted to use it.

At the poker tournament when I busted the blinds were incredibly high and the average M was from .5-2 (equivalent to 1-4xBB meaning everyone was short stacked). I pushed a4o on SB and BB wakes up with AK. GG and good night.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't play blackjack, so my explanation could be off. But from my understanding this is why you were given a hard time. If I am wrong or used the wrong terminology, someone else please jump in. I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this yet:

The player may have been counting (or he thought he was counting which seems to be more common). Counters wait for a shoe that is "rich" in tens so they have more favorable odds. They will manipulate their bet size when they are getting the best of it, but in order for them to know they have this advantage they must also assume their fellow players are practicing basic strategy or their count can be off. So if they suddenly go from $100 a hand to $500 its because the conditions are now favorable, but one extra card requested, or if you split a hand that normally shouldn't be split might mess with their ability to catch that ten. Yes its a lot of voodoo, but at least there is a modest amount of math behind their superstition.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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TT - Most of the time the player who mentions this was NOT counting.
I used to count-cards and also dealt for a few months.

Naturally I can recognize superstitious players who are mostly just plain bad.

100% of the time when I have seen someone complain about this type of thing it was because they were a superstitious player (although they may play something kind of close to basic-strategy).

I would say that my sample-size for this 100% is somewhere over 100 occurances (not for specifically using a coupon, but just players complaining about others jumping in and out of the game).


To address another point about 'everyone thinks they can count':
Most players I have experienced know very little about even basic counting. They think it's too difficult for a normal human-being this side of rain-man to be successful at.

A few might understand something about it being a way to monitor the ratio of 10's to low-cards. But many of these people are the same types who will take 'even money' on their BJ against an ace up-card (an incorrect play in a neutral-count deck) or think that taking insurance on a good hand is a smarter play (especially bad when you have 2 face-cards).


Most people just don't get counting AT ALL.
Perhaps this is a bit different at the locals-type casinos in LV than it is in Tunica.

But my experience playing blackjack at one of the less-touristy casinos in LV was that the players were just as bad as anywhere else. Except that, unlike the casinos on the strip populated with more tourists, the locals were not completely new to the game.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

jba,

"the # of bad BJ players that believe a new player 'messes up the flow of the cards' outnumber counters about 10000000000:1. maybe I'm exaggerating but it's close."

No, that is exactly correct. It also happens to be the same ratio for "third-base hitting when he should stay will take the dealer's bust card guys" to counters.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

your a complete PRICK. IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO SCREW UP THE TABLE FOR SEMI-PROS LIKE ME. SERIOUSLY, YOUR A JERK. IF I SEE YOU AT MY TABLE IM GONNA KICK YOU IN THE NUTS.

Re: Black Jack Ettiquete: Am I rude?
 

During my brief career as a counter, when the count is high anything goes to keep everyone off the table. Extreme rudeness, putting legs on nearby chairs, smoking in people's faces, anything.