American public education - myths exploded
 

Pay no attention to the man (from the NEA) behind the curtain! Here is the skinny from horrible right wing think tankers on American education linky . It's long. Here's my favorite lie exploded:

<font color="blue">The rich-school myth

A popular myth says that private schools do better than public schools only because they have more money, recruit high-performing students, and expel low-performing students. The conventional wisdom is captured in one Michigan newspaper's warning that "a voucher system would force penniless public schools to shut down while channeling more and more money into wealthy private schools."

There is no question that, on average, students in private schools demonstrate significantly greater achievement. For example, on the eighth-grade reading portion of the NAEP test, 53 percent of private school students perform at or above the level defined as "proficient," compared to only 30 percent of public school students. In eighth-grade math, only 27 percent of public-school students perform at the "proficient" level, compared to 43 percent of private-school students. Interestingly, twice as many private-school eighth graders go on to earn a bachelor's degree as their public-school counterparts, in percentage terms.

However: it simply isn't true that public schools are penniless while private schools are wealthy. In fact, the opposite is closer to the truth. According to the U.S. Department of Education, the average private school charged $4,689 per student in tuition for the 1999Ð2000 school year. That same year, the average public school spent $8,032 per pupil. Among Catholic schools (which educate 49 percent of all private-school students), the average tuition was only $3,236. The vast majority of private-school students actually have less than half as much funding behind them as public-school students.

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Enjoy!

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

Students in private schools tend to do better because parents who make more money (and thus can afford to send their kids to private schools) tend to be more intelligent and sucessful. They are already at a genetic advantage.

If you take a dumb kid and put him in a private school, he's not going to magically get smart because the schools are so great, he's just going to be a dumb kid. If you take a smart kid and put him in a public school, he's not going to get dumb.

The problem with the notion of vouchers is that if you allow exemptions for people who put their kids in private schools, you have to allow exemptions for everyone not utilizing the public school system. I don't have any kids, why do my property taxes pay for the education of others? Etc.

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The vast majority of private-school students actually have less than half as much funding behind them as public-school students.

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Also, if this is an example of the conclusions comming out of a "think tank," then it's a crappy think tank. This is a fallacious assumption because it is comparing how much a public school *spends* per student and how much a private school *charges* per student. The fundmental flaw is that it assumes that the only way that private schools recieve funding is from tuition, which we all know is not true. They are spending much more per student than what they are charging in tuition.

I keep finding more problems when I read this:

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recruit high-performing students, and expel low-performing students.

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They don't dispel this notion. This happens in private schools all the time. And to boot, they are arguing against the fact that public schools currently are "penniless." But I don't think that's what the counter-argument is: the counter argument is that it would render public schools penniless.

I gotta be honest. There's logical fallacies all over the place here, this think tank kind of sucks.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

" I don't have any kids, why do my property taxes pay for the education of others?"

The simple fact that you ask such a foolish question makes suspect all of your other ideas. Have another Duff.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

My mom taught in the city public schools for over 15 years, before moving to a private Catholic school for the last few years. She says that the same things are taught in the same way. Two major differences.....In the Catholic school, parents are involved and make sure their kids do their homework, and at least halfway pay attention. In other words, reinforcement of what they get at school. Second, the learning environment is much less hectic due to the fact that schools can pick who comes, who stays, and the fact that most parents won't shell out a lot of money for their kid to go that private school and goof off.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

Ever heard of the correlation doesn't imply causation fallacy? If not, you have a textbook example of it.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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" I don't have any kids, why do my property taxes pay for the education of others?"

The simple fact that you ask such a foolish question makes suspect all of your other ideas. Have another Duff.

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Howso? If one contests that they should be exempt from paying taxes for public schools because their children do not utilize the public school system, an equally valid point should be that people who do not have children (an thus do not utilize the public school system) should be exempt as well.

If that is not an equally valid point, feel free to outline why it's not. But writing it off as "foolish" really doesn't do much to further your cause.

Why should some who do not utilize public schools have to pay for public schools, while others who do not utilize public schools not have to?

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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According to the U.S. Department of Education, the average private school charged $4,689 per student in tuition for the 1999Ð2000 school year. That same year, the average public school spent $8,032 per pupil.

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Apples and oranges. This is comparing the amount public schools *spent* per pupil, versus the amount private (mostly catholic) schools *charged* in tuition per student.

In addition to tuition the private students pay, the majority of Catholic schools recieve supplementary funding from their parish per student, and it brings their per student spending to nearly the same, if not in many cases much more per student.

That being said however, it does nothing to refute the assertion on results of private vs public, but I just wanted to point out that Catholic schools operate on a lot more than just the tuition of the students, and in some cases recieve more than 50% of their operating funds from the parishes and often use tuition as only a supplement.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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According to the U.S. Department of Education, the average private school charged $4,689 per student in tuition for the 1999Ð2000 school year. That same year, the average public school spent $8,032 per pupil.

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Apples and oranges. This is comparing the amount public schools *spent* per pupil, versus the amount private (mostly catholic) schools *charged* in tuition per student.

In addition to tuition the private students pay, the majority of Catholic schools recieve supplementary funding from their parish per student, and it brings their per student spending to nearly the same, if not in many cases much more per student.

That being said however, it does nothing to refute the assertion on results of private vs public, but I just wanted to point out that Catholic schools operate on a lot more than just the tuition of the students, and in some cases recieve more than 50% of their operating funds from the parishes and often use tuition as only a supplement.

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*Shakes Fist*

I said it first, but you said it better. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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" I don't have any kids, why do my property taxes pay for the education of others?"

The simple fact that you ask such a foolish question makes suspect all of your other ideas. Have another Duff.

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Why is this a foolish question? Why should he be imprisoned if he doesen't pay for the education of someone he has never met?

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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Ever heard of the correlation doesn't imply causation fallacy? If not, you have a textbook example of it.

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I don't see the author attempting to prove causation. Do you? Implied? Perhaps, but not a proof.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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" I don't have any kids, why do my property taxes pay for the education of others?"

The simple fact that you ask such a foolish question makes suspect all of your other ideas. Have another Duff.

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Perhaps because education of children benefits society as well as the individual children who are educated? Doh!

As I mentioned in the other education thread, I dont think vouchers should be for the entire cost per pupil in the public schools, though. It should only be for the direct costs of education, teachers, supplies, books and so on.

Those are reasonably flexible costs and will not be spent when the student goes to private school. (Reasonably flexible because you cant eliminate partial teachers, there are no savings until enough students withdraw to actually eliminate a job, then no savings till the next job etc.)

Relatively inflexible costs of building maintenance, utitlities, debt service on bonds etc. should not be part of the voucher money. The residual amount the voucher doesnt cover can be looked at as the private school family's contribution to the societal benefits of broad education, similar to the childless families.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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Why should some who do not utilize public schools have to pay for public schools, while others who do not utilize public schools not have to?

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Cause those snotty little brats that you are paying for now, will be funding the nurse who wipes your ass down the road?

Or, because it's in the countries best interest to have an educated society?

Or, so we can maintain a standard of living which we are accustomed to?

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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Why should some who do not utilize public schools have to pay for public schools, while others who do not utilize public schools not have to?

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Cause those snotty little brats that you are paying for now, will be funding the nurse who wipes your ass down the road?

Or, because it's in the countries best interest to have an educated society?

Or, so we can maintain a standard of living which we are accustomed to?

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Nobody other than myself is going to be funding my senile, vomit-covered wrinkly old self. But, you know, I do stupid stuff like save for retirement. You're missing the point, though. I was never arguing against my property taxes paying for public schools. I was arguing against the notion that some people should be able to not have to pay for public schooling because they don't use it, while other do have to pay for public schooling even though they don't use it.

The post before yours was better. You made the mistake of inferring opinons that weren't stated and answering questions that weren't asked.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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" I don't have any kids, why do my property taxes pay for the education of others?"

The simple fact that you ask such a foolish question makes suspect all of your other ideas. Have another Duff.

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Perhaps because education of children benefits society as well as the individual children who are educated? Doh!

As I mentioned in the other education thread, I dont think vouchers should be for the entire cost per pupil in the public schools, though. It should only be for the direct costs of education, teachers, supplies, books and so on.

Those are reasonably flexible costs and will not be spent when the student goes to private school. (Reasonably flexible because you cant eliminate partial teachers, there are no savings until enough students withdraw to actually eliminate a job, then no savings till the next job etc.)

Relatively inflexible costs of building maintenance, utitlities, debt service on bonds etc. should not be part of the voucher money. The residual amount the voucher doesnt cover can be looked at as the private school family's contribution to the societal benefits of broad education, similar to the childless families.

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nh.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

American public schools aren't educating people, though. They're failing miserably. Just heard on the radio yesterday that more than half the students in the 15 largest cities' public schools are not graduating. More than half.

The market would do better at educating people, and without having to resort to exorbitant property taxes.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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Or, because it's in the countries best interest to have an educated society?

Or, so we can maintain a standard of living which we are accustomed to?

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Those are great goals to have. Just because one may perceive those to be the goals of our public school system doesn't mean that it actually accomplishes those goals or that it is the best option to accomplishes them.

natedogg

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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The problem with the notion of vouchers is that if you allow exemptions for people who put their kids in private schools, you have to allow exemptions for everyone not utilizing the public school system.

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Why is this a problem?

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

Additionally, in non-religious private schools, donations often are as much, or more than, the tuition.

Having said that, though, seems to me that parent involvement is a major factor in school performance.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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Or, because it's in the countries best interest to have an educated society?

Or, so we can maintain a standard of living which we are accustomed to?

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Those are great goals to have. Just because one may perceive those to be the goals of our public school system doesn't mean that it actually accomplishes those goals or that it is the best option to accomplishes them.

natedogg

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/agreed

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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Or, because it's in the countries best interest to have an educated society?

Or, so we can maintain a standard of living which we are accustomed to?

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are great goals to have. Just because one may perceive those to be the goals of our public school system doesn't mean that it actually accomplishes those goals or that it is the best option to accomplishes them.

natedogg

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/agreed

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but that doesnt mean it isnt encumbent on everyone to contribute toward the attempt at education, whether its their kids or not

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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Or, because it's in the countries best interest to have an educated society?

Or, so we can maintain a standard of living which we are accustomed to?

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are great goals to have. Just because one may perceive those to be the goals of our public school system doesn't mean that it actually accomplishes those goals or that it is the best option to accomplishes them.

natedogg

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/agreed

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but that doesnt mean it isnt encumbent on everyone to contribute toward the attempt at education, whether its their kids or not

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Where is that written? What rule is there that requires me to pay for other people's kids' education, especially when the evidence is that the 'attempt' isn't working?

Why do I have to pay for other kids to go to school?

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

Another point here is about the teachers that you get in private schools. Many are excellent and choose to be there because they take pride in the school they are a part of. There are many great public school teachers as well,but not as high a percentage as in private schools.

And no discussion of American public schools is complete without mention of the absolute disaster that liberals have unleashed on our public education system. Instead of reading writing and rythmatic, they are more interested in teaching 10 year olds how to be good little liberals. I'm not a fan of religious indoctrination either, but intilling good basic morals in kids is far more valuable than the liberal crap in public schools. Sorry for the rant, but my expereince with "education" departments on college campuses has brought me to this conclusion. We used to have math to describe this:

Limit (GPA---&gt;0) Engineering Major = Business Major
Limit(GPA---&gt;0) Business Major = Education Major

This phenomenon and the congregation of liberals in the education departments is the main problem. I'm in favor of vouchers.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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Or, because it's in the countries best interest to have an educated society?

Or, so we can maintain a standard of living which we are accustomed to?

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are great goals to have. Just because one may perceive those to be the goals of our public school system doesn't mean that it actually accomplishes those goals or that it is the best option to accomplishes them.

natedogg

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/agreed

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but that doesnt mean it isnt encumbent on everyone to contribute toward the attempt at education, whether its their kids or not

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Where is that written? What rule is there that requires me to pay for other people's kids' education, especially when the evidence is that the 'attempt' isn't working?

Why do I have to pay for other kids to go to school?

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It's a pretty good scam really. Especially when a certain % of the kids will fail miserably, then go on to live off the dole for their entire adult life, so you get to pay for them then too.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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Another point here is about the teachers that you get in private schools. Many are excellent and choose to be there because they take pride in the school they are a part of. There are many great public school teachers as well,but not as high a percentage as in private schools.


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I would argue the opposite. . My wife worked in both public and private schools and the quality of teachers in publics was clearly higher. I attributed that to the higher pay and benefits in public schools. Many of the private school teachers were either in their first jobs and couldnt find work in public schools, or were retired on full pensions from publics and welcomed a less rigorous environment with a lighter class load and a curriculum that wasnt changing from year to year.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

As a public school teacher I know for a fact that private schools stretch the dollar further than public schools. Reason is they don't waste money like a public school system. Any public school system is big government with too much bureaucracy. It is a common fact in capitalistic societies that private industry will perform any service more efficiently than their government run counterpart. This occurs because of comeptition.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

Great limit formulas. I teach high school physics and never had an education course in my life. I need to take them now to get my licence. Education courses are all BS. I did more work in one college physics homework assignment than I do in one whole education course.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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As a public school teacher I know for a fact that private schools stretch the dollar further than public schools. Reason is they don't waste money like a public school system. Any public school system is big government with too much bureaucracy. It is a common fact in capitalistic societies that private industry will perform any service more efficiently than their government run counterpart. This occurs because of comeptition.

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I really doubt that you're a public school teacher, unless you're teaching biology of the fetus.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

I teach high school Physics outside Washington D.C. in Northern Virginia. You sound like a common lib. Can't discuss the topic so you resort to a personal attack.

I'm also an ex USAF officer and NASA empoloyee, so be assured my students actually learn something valuable.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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Great limit formulas. I teach high school physics and never had an education course in my life. I need to take them now to get my licence. Education courses are all BS. I did more work in one college physics homework assignment than I do in one whole education course.

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You mean the system is designed poorly? Heavans to Betsy.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

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I'm also an ex USAF officer and NASA empoloyee, so be assured my students actually learn something valuable.

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I see.

Air Force sex scandal

human error caused loss of mars orbiter

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

This post should be ignored. I think the physics students are lucky to have a former military officer teaching their class.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

Second post further reinforces the point. This poster is idea-free.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

Thanks, American Enterprise is a great magazine and Jay Greene's an excellent writer. If you're interested, see edexcellence.net as you can order books for free which they'll send. I also recommend Education Next.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

Agreed, I've been a bureaucrat for 12 years in the schools and I also crack up how many of my workers wince at the sound of my saying we're bureaucrats. It freaks them out because they're conditioned to believe that, via paperwork, they are saving every child on earth.

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

Also, pardon the self promotion but it's topical, if anybody wants to read my book on education and about the school I worked at please do so. I don't have anymore free copies to mail out though--sadly enough.

Escape from Gangsta Island

I described it in this interview for frontpagemag too.
interview

Re: American public education - myths exploded
 

I read the article. Interesting story and you make some great points.