my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

article can be found here . it's good stuff and i suggest that everyone read it

here is the real version though. if you are just starting out, you should take this seriously

1. player starts off playing low limit games. this is when poker is fun. he constantly figures stuff out on his own. at this point, the player can choose to enjoy the game, or get good at it

2. player discovers books. this is exciting for player, as now he can consistently beat his friends, or go into a casino and hold his own in 3/6 limit or 1/2 no limit. however, the player learns that he must play tight which is less fun

3. player discovers 2+2. great, now he can get all the strategy help he wants. but player is now in a sea of better players playing more tables making more money, so poker is now about getting better, and more importantly making more money. also, player realizes he must play at least 4 tables because that's the thing to do.

4. player really picks up the game and starts making loads of money. player loves poker

5. player reads BBV and sees how much more the other players are making, so he decides he has to move up. player faces the brutal reality that the games are not so easy anymore and hits his first real downswing. now all of a sudden poker is not fun anymore. instead it's a constant struggle, but it's essential to keep playing and getting better

6. this i call the "in too deep" stage. player now dislikes poker immensely. but he realizes that making money will never be so easy, so he has no choice but to keep playing. and he can't just play at a leisurely rate. he realizes that he will regret every second he didn't spend playing poker, so he is now forced to play everyday, as much as possible. once the player reaches this stage he is trapped. no one can escape the appeal of many hundreds an hour and the possibility of early retirement. but a bad session can ruin a day.

7. poker consumes player and he eventually becomes completely miserable, hating every second from the time the first table is opened until the last one is closed


i'm still in stage 6 but i'm pretty excited for stage 7

Re: my revision of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

8. BUSTO!

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

I'm in stage 6 as well. Are you sure 7 is comming?

I also highly reccomend the original article.

-Craig

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

Looks pretty good except that I skipped stage 4.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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I'm in stage 6 as well. Are you sure 7 is comming?

I also highly reccomend the original article.


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i think you ahve to be a pro to enjoy stage 7

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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Looks pretty good except that I skipped stage 4.

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Seriously. Let's go back to stage 3 and try again.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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Looks pretty good except that I skipped stage 4.

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Seriously. Let's go back to stage 3 and try again.

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you're lucky evan. you ran bad enough that you got discouraged and went the job route. i'd trade places with you right now in a heartbeat. you stalled in stage 3 but you can choose to keep going if you wish

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

and actually chris stopped in stage 4. that's the only instance i've heard of where someone stopped while doing well. most people get greedy

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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I'm in stage 6 as well. Are you sure 7 is comming?

I also highly reccomend the original article.


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i think you ahve to be a pro to enjoy stage 7

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I'm a pro, but I've only been one for about a month.

Re: my revision of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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8. BUSTO!

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I'm currently at this stage, but I'm much happier than I was in stages 5-7.

Like Evan, I've been going the job route lately, and poker is fun again.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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Looks pretty good except that I skipped stage 4.

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Seriously. Let's go back to stage 3 and try again.

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you're lucky evan. you ran bad enough that you got discouraged and went the job route. i'd trade places with you right now in a heartbeat. you stalled in stage 3 but you can choose to keep going if you wish

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So why don't you go get a job? You have a degree from an Ivy League school and presumably some connections around Nyew York. I'm sure you could find something you didn't hate doing that would at least supliment the money you make at poker and relieve some of the stress of being a pro.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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6. this i call the "in too deep" stage. player now dislikes poker immensely. but he realizes that making money will never be so easy, so he has no choice but to keep playing. and he can't just play at a leisurely rate. he realizes that he will regret every second he didn't spend playing poker, so he is now forced to play everyday, as much as possible. once the player reaches this stage he is trapped. no one can escape the appeal of many hundreds an hour and the possibility of early retirement. but a bad session can ruin a day.


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If you really are making "many hundreds an hour" you can play at a leisurely rate and still make enough for early retirement within 2 or 3 years. I'm not sure why that option isn't good enough. The bitch is if you are making a 'mere' $200/hr or so. It's high enough that you know that IF YOU COULD SUSTAIN IT, playing a TON will get you to early retirement in 5 years, but leisurely playing, while putting a huge wad in your pocket, won't.

Of course, if you hate every moment of it, and a bad session really ruins your day, I'd worry more about going busto -- monetarily and/or mentally -- than making enough $$ for early retirement.

(Note: I'm assuming that you need a cool mil in the bank for early retirement, as I'm assuming that even after you retire you'll still play a little poker/do some smart investing/etc., so you'll still have income coming in. If "early retirement" really means absolutely no work at all of any sort, obviously you'll need more.)

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

Wow - Soooo true....I am in 5/6 limbo land...

Poker defo isn't enjoyable for me at the moment !

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

i agree w/ this too. i'm close to quit now due to it. haven't played more than 1000 hands in 2 months.

i think when i rejoin it i'll rejoin at stage 4, less tables, lower stakes, more fun. hopefully not caring about the missed out money and early retirement as i could happily do stage 4 all my life, Tommy style.

it would be interesting to see what ray zee makes of this.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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7. poker consumes player and he eventually becomes completely miserable, hating every second from the time the first table is opened until the last one is closed



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Its like that one motherfukkin ring. Its consumed you! Its all you think about! You barely eat! You barely sleep! Cant you see what its doing to you Mr Josh? Cant ya?

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

lol I like this post and the original when I first read it.

I think i'm in the like 5.25 stage still happy even during the brutal swings ( not as happy obviously [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]) and not ultra concerned with moving up beyond the juicy 5-10 games asap ( probably becuz I spend all my RB on expenses)

jstill

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

HOW THE [censored] DID I SKIP STEP 4? GOD I HATE POKER

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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The bitch is if you are making a 'mere' $200/hr or so. It's high enough that you know that IF YOU COULD SUSTAIN IT, playing a TON will get you to early retirement in 5 years

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The New Yorker in me is LMAO at this prospect. Even if you ran that well for 5 years you would have made enough money to be not terribly well off. Retirement? Fuhgedaboudit.

Of course, in other non-absurd cities, your mileage will vary greatly.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

So you're young.

You make an assload.

You live in NYC.

You've got a great education.

Yeah sounds pretty rough. Play less, get a job. You'll find some non-poker mental stimulation is good for you.

Look, I make 65K a year at my job. I get in and out of playing lots based on how I'm doing. If I play enough, I'll maybe net 20 or 25K from poker. If I'm lucky I'll move up and make a little more. If I run bad or just don't play enough, maybe 10-15K. And you know what? Being 24 and making 80-90K is OK with me. I'm sure you can make much more than that given your credentials and the amount you could pull in playing leisurally.

Given your position, there's just no excuse to be miserable about it.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

I started at 3 - went backwards to 1 then jumped to 5.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

OOT is a step in there somewhere.

So is playing 10/20 at the Trop and bringing your g'friend to tears.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

there is also an alternate stage 6 where you dislike poker immensely and play only the minimum hours to keep yourself alive and therefore wind up playing the same stakes for 3 years and spend the rest of your time on oot.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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Looks pretty good except that I skipped stage 4.

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Seriously. Let's go back to stage 3 and try again.

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you're lucky evan. you ran bad enough that you got discouraged and went the job route. i'd trade places with you right now in a heartbeat. you stalled in stage 3 but you can choose to keep going if you wish

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Hi Josh. If you want, I have a job for you in Cleveland in like two months. Maybe one in NY, but that means you have to help me find a job in NY.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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The bitch is if you are making a 'mere' $200/hr or so. It's high enough that you know that IF YOU COULD SUSTAIN IT, playing a TON will get you to early retirement in 5 years

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The New Yorker in me is LMAO at this prospect. Even if you ran that well for 5 years you would have made enough money to be not terribly well off. Retirement? Fuhgedaboudit.

Of course, in other non-absurd cities, your mileage will vary greatly.

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Meh . . . if you played 50 hours a week making $200/hr, you'd make 10k a week. Over five years you'd make 2.5 million. After taxes, 1.5 million.

If you can't figure out a way to psuedo-retire on 1.5 million, even living in NYC . . . well, I envy your lifestyle, but you're not really trying very hard, are you?

(Note that I'm assuming you'll still have SOME sort of poker-or-other income after retirement, but you won't be grinding it out the way you were before. For absolute full kick-back-and-relax-and-never-get-your-aces-cracked retirement, 1.5 million isn't going to cut it.)

I mean, I have to believe that there are places in NYC where you could by a reasonable home for 600-700k, no?

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

Fck, now I feel guilty and might have to play this afternoon.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

While I don't find playing poker all that fun (but still sorta fun sometimes), I surely don't despise it and hate it. I mean, when I drop 85 bets in the first 200 hands I play in a day, I quit cause I'm not enjoying myself and my image sucks but on the more normal days it's no big deal. Grind grind grind. Money comes in eventually. It's not 'fun' so much as it is 'decent' and doing many other jobs would be much less 'decent' for much less money. Dropping down in stakes for a good while really improved my mentality towards the game. Actually the more I think about it it can still be fun sometimes. Or maybe I've just trained myself to think that so I can get hands in.

I really feel like I'm one fo the only people who doesn't have problems getting hands in. All my friends except 1 play so much less than I do and feel the same way as you do josh. I don't understand why so many "successful' players on here struggle so much. You must all be at a higher level of intelligence and just not satisfied with how relatively mundane poker often is. Either that or I just like/want money more than you guys.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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I mean, when I drop 85 bets in the first 200 hands I play in a day, I quit cause I'm not enjoying myself and my image sucks

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I realize who I'm talking to here... but I stick around on these days because now that my image sucks, I KNOW I'm getting paid off when the cards actually come around and I make a friggin' hand...

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

I think steps 5-7 can be summarized as "Player neglects to achieve balance and [censored] himself." You can ruin anything with OCD behavior. Those "steps" are strictly compulsory. Now that you've gone fishing for empathy, take a vacation or do something that's going to improve your quality of life.

You make a wicked income working short hours. If you can't find a way to enjoy that I wouldn't be so quick to blame the source of income.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

Don't know about the US, bu It's not like there an assload of 200$/hour jobs out there.?

Also this would be an achievement on your own where you decide when and where to play, not some wicked boos of yours.

So more freedom to ya if you can handle it when playing poker I know I still let it affect me and try to hard to get in a load of hands all the time while having a fulltime job and a social life aswell.

Obviosuly I'm at 3 aiming at 4 soon. But I'd bet ya that I can get over the mentally aspect if I can get it to 100$/hour I'm fine.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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I mean, when I drop 85 bets in the first 200 hands I play in a day, I quit cause I'm not enjoying myself and my image sucks

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I realize who I'm talking to here... but I stick around on these days because now that my image sucks, I KNOW I'm getting paid off when the cards actually come around and I make a friggin' hand...

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Perhaps a difference in style and who we're often playing against makes the difference in what image we want.

I often play heads-up and lots of 3 handed to 5 handed and I play pretty darn loose and decently aggressive (but not like aggression rating wise, i'm only like 1.7 aggression on pt) and as I'm sure you know, you don't have stuff more often than you have stuff, so I want those pots and I want that bluffing equity and I want people to be scared of putting bets in, not "oh he is really weak why don't i just try a river raise here". It really makes a big big deal in very short play. When I'm running hot I play very long sessions often because the players I'm playing with are losing and in a worse mental state than usual and I'm sure it really gives me a much bigger edge as they just play much more defensively and then put in aggression in the wrong spots cause they're frustrated.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

Bryce,

Summed it up nicely. I completely agree.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

Wow, way to describe my poker career. I think I am dangerously close to 7.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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Looks pretty good except that I skipped stage 4.

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Seriously. Let's go back to stage 3 and try again.

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you're lucky evan. you ran bad enough that you got discouraged and went the job route. i'd trade places with you right now in a heartbeat. you stalled in stage 3 but you can choose to keep going if you wish

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Hi Josh. If you want, I have a job for you in Cleveland in like two months. Maybe one in NY, but that means you have to help me find a job in NY.

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i may want a job in cleveland. would i have to wear khaki pants?

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

it's all about greed man. i could play 9 tables of 10/20 6-max limit for the rest of eternity making ridiculous money by normal standards. but hmmm i COULD make more if i play bigger, or play NL, or play more tables, or play more hours...

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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Meh . . . if you played 50 hours a week making $200/hr, you'd going completelyfuckinginsane

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fyp

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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5. LIMIT player reads BBV and sees how much more the other NO LIMIT players are making, so he decides he has to SWITCH GAMES. player faces the brutal reality that HE CANT PLAY NO LIMIT. now all of a sudden poker is not fun anymore. instead it's a constant struggle, but it's essential TO SAY ITS ONLY VARIANCE, AND THAT THE NL PROS HAVE ALL THE "FUNDAMENTALS" WRONG A LA KUROSH

7. poker consumes player and he eventually SHORT STACKS THE 50/100 UB GAME DECLARING HIMSELF A NL PRO

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Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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it's all about greed man. i could play 9 tables of 10/20 6-max limit for the rest of eternity making ridiculous money by normal standards. but hmmm i COULD make more if i play bigger, or play NL, or play more tables, or play more hours...

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i think some of it is about ego too. we always want to get better and move up, partly for the $$ but also because we want the satisfaction of knowing we are getting better.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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i think some of it is about ego too. we always want to get better and move up, partly for the $$ but also because we want the satisfaction of knowing we are getting better.

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eventually you get humbled and this ego goes away. trust me on this.

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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I mean, I have to believe that there are places in NYC where you could by a reasonable home for 600-700k, no?

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Actually, if you plan on having fewer than three kids and you and your spouse combine income for no less than $500,000/yr., then yes, you can find a reasonable place in NYC for 600-700k.

If I show you blueprints of 650k condos and co-ops in NYC, your mouth would drop. You can buy a very nicely arranged box for that amount. (And you might even get one full bathroom and a kitchen with a dishwasher!)

Re: my version of ray zee\'s \"the different stages in a player\'s life\"
 

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i think some of it is about ego too. we always want to get better and move up, partly for the $$ but also because we want the satisfaction of knowing we are getting better.

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eventually you get humbled and this ego goes away. trust me on this.

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Vehn is one wise dude.

scrub