Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

I would like to know if Ed Miller is still interested in debating Gary Carson.

If so, what are your terms, etc, Ed? I would suggest a 'no holds' discussion and only you and Gary can participate in the thread. No Mod's... no other posters (until perhaps at a later date).

Nice entertaining QEFTSG last night.



RazzO

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

No idea what this refers to. Care to enlighten me (us)? But, if it does take place perhaps a separate thread for those of us who want (translated: need) to give opinions/thoughts from the sidelines.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

I'd love for Ed to debate Gary Larson.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
No idea what this refers to. Care to enlighten me (us)? But, if it does take place perhaps a separate thread for those of us who want (translated: need) to give opinions/thoughts from the sidelines.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gary claims Ed wants a debate.

Your idea is good.


RazzO

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

On what, poker?

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
On what, poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Gary might be better off if the topic was on what makes for buying good wine.


RazzO

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

Why the hell did you post this here?

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why the hell did you post this here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I was thinking poker math or science. I now wish I would have posted under Poker Theory. I didn't know this was a non-poker section.

My apologies to all.



RazzO

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

i'd like to see any two poker authors debate each other.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gary claims Ed wants a debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? A debate about what? I have little interest in debating anyone about anything, and I have no idea where this is coming from.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why the hell did you post this here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I was thinking poker math or science. I now wish I would have posted under Poker Theory. I didn't know this was a non-poker section.

My apologies to all.

RazzO

[/ QUOTE ]


This thread was originally posted in "Science, Math, and Philosophy". The Moderator moved it.


RazzO

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gary claims Ed wants a debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? A debate about what? I have little interest in debating anyone about anything, and I have no idea where this is coming from.

[/ QUOTE ]


Click this link, Ed;
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...bb26bcb013afe6


RazzO

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

I never said I wanted to debate Gary Carson on 2+2 or anywhere else. I honestly have no idea what he's talking about.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd love for Ed to debate Gary Larson.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't even imagine what they would debate.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

Wow.. they're talking about me a lot today on RGP.

Lately I've been bummed about poker in general, and it's because of how negative things are getting. The comments at the table are getting more vicious and personal, IMO. Everyone's a "donkey" these days... everyone's got a chip on their shoulder.

Lawmakers are trying to criminalize poker in multiple venues. That gets me down.

I've never posted on RGP in my life, and apparently they gotta blast me in multiple threads today. I guess.

Everyone's busto. Let's talk smack about people. OOT's full of snarky BS... Sure, it's clever one-liners and stuff, but just because people laugh at it doesn't mean it's not still really negative.

I'm not saying I'm an angel or anything... particularly a couple of years ago (and still to some extent now), I used to flame and disrespect with the best of them. Well, with the mediocre of them at least. That sucks.

I can't undo my past, but I apologize today to anyone I was negative to. I've really tried my best the last year or two to be positive when I can and to keep my yap shut when I can't be positive.

I feel like I've matured in the last couple of years... and in that maturing process, I've lost some of the love I used to feel for poker. Reading 2+2 kinda makes me sad sometimes. I dunno...

It's late and I'm tired, and I'm sure this will look sappy in the morning. But I think there's way too much hate in poker these days. I think that sucks. I hope people agree with me and try to make poker a little more positive in general.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

ban razzo already

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow.. they're talking about me a lot today on RGP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed, sorry to snip most of your words. But this first line sums up what I'm about to say.

The people you are talking about are filled with hate and jealousy. They aren't going anywhere past RGP. That's the most famous they'll get. I can go on and on along the same lines. But it's jealousy. They say they are not jealous, but they are. They don't realize this..and the fact they are full of hate.

If you just sit back and watch these poor souls and realize this (RGP), you'll feel better about yourself. It's just that you are the one this week. As usual, it's mostly a troll comment from Gary, in this case, a lie by him, that fueled much of today's flames.

Sorry if I said anything if you feel it contributed in hurting you.



RazzO

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow.. they're talking about me a lot today on RGP.

Lately I've been bummed about poker in general, and it's because of how negative things are getting. The comments at the table are getting more vicious and personal, IMO. Everyone's a "donkey" these days... everyone's got a chip on their shoulder.

Lawmakers are trying to criminalize poker in multiple venues. That gets me down.

I've never posted on RGP in my life, and apparently they gotta blast me in multiple threads today. I guess.

Everyone's busto. Let's talk smack about people. OOT's full of snarky BS... Sure, it's clever one-liners and stuff, but just because people laugh at it doesn't mean it's not still really negative.

I'm not saying I'm an angel or anything... particularly a couple of years ago (and still to some extent now), I used to flame and disrespect with the best of them. Well, with the mediocre of them at least. That sucks.

I can't undo my past, but I apologize today to anyone I was negative to. I've really tried my best the last year or two to be positive when I can and to keep my yap shut when I can't be positive.

I feel like I've matured in the last couple of years... and in that maturing process, I've lost some of the love I used to feel for poker. Reading 2+2 kinda makes me sad sometimes. I dunno...

It's late and I'm tired, and I'm sure this will look sappy in the morning. But I think there's way too much hate in poker these days. I think that sucks. I hope people agree with me and try to make poker a little more positive in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go to bed. You've got a game to be at in the morning!

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to know if Ed Miller is still interested in debating Gary Carson.


[/ QUOTE ]

It seems you are more interested in stirring up a stupid fight. Your posts on here and RGP are accomplishing nothing. You're just inciting bickering among others.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry if I said anything if you feel it contributed in hurting you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not personally hurt. In general, I find people are exceptionally nice to me... to be honest, I'm a bit surprised people don't blast me more often.

I've just been feeling more bummed out in general with how people in poker treat each other over the past year or so. Just a general feeling of, "This sucks." For whatever reason, I felt like sharing it tonight.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

I'm sorry to say Ed that I think this denigration of attitude that you sense has more to do with the fact that there are more people involved with poker now than before and the majority of people are hateful or jealous towards people more successful than they are.

I wouldn't let it bum you out because you're likely to run into it this attitude in any large field of work in which you endeavor be it poker, business, or some other field.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

I have to agree with Ed. I've been blocking chat online more often than I ever have. I can't even count the number of times I've been told to die, that my mother is going to die, that I'm a [censored], that I'm the N word, that I'm handicapped, etc etc etc. I mean, it doesn't bother me that people get upset, mad, etc. Sure, they're going to. I'd just rather not see that chat. I like having chat on because people do give out a lot of information there at times and I like to be cordial when someone tells me nh or good job; asks about where I live (although that might fit into the former category moreso).

And around here in the forums it's nearly impossible to get serious answers to questions OR it's full of redundant questions that are easily answered with a google search or forum search. Around here, though, and probably on online poker as well; I suspect it's more to do with age/maturity than anything else. I'm 25, married, expecting my first child any time now. I probably expect more than I should from the majority of posters around here. That being said, I also wouldn't be surprised to find that some of the most mature, responsive, helpful posters around here fall into the same median age/maturity that bogs it down. So, kudos.


K, wtf am I responding to this for. Here's to being up late, tired, and sappy. Cheers.

jrbick

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

Ed,

While there's a lot of stuff that could definitely be better, I think the core elements that cause the problems you speak of stem from the fundamental nature of the game. It's a game built around conflict with people competing against each other trying to take all of their money. I believe a large part of the change you're seeing is due to the fact that (at least in the games I play) a higher and higher percentage of people seem to be doing this for their livelihood now, leading to a greater degree of stress and conflict in many cases. In the few years that I've been playing, it's been very clear to me that along w/ a lot of really great people, the poker world also contains many of the sleaziest, scuzziest characters around. Sure it would be a more pleasant environment if this element was not part of the game, but I just consider it part of the deal. Now, that's not exactly what you're talking about here, but I think it's very related.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

I think it's also worth noting that it's easy to not be one of those with a really lousy attitude when one actually knows how to play and wins consistently.
The losing gets to people naturally.

Those who are winning just wonder why everybody else is so miserable and megative. Well, part of it is due to them losing so much.

Although I think Ed also has some people whom he KNOWS are winning players in mind.


Anyway, I've never been THAT much of a fan of playing live partly because of the meanness and attitudes (not sure if it's any worse now or not).
Although I haven't played live for a few weeks now and I have been in a bit of a mood to give it a try again sometime.



I don't feel like treading over to RGP and wading through everything. If somebody wanted to copy 1 or 2 of the highlights I wouldn't mind.


If NPA were to debate Gary Carson I think it should cover a variety of topics with zero poker relation.
They would not know which side of the topic they will be arguing until they take the podium.
time format to be worked out later.
Topic 1 - The American League is 'better' because they use the designated-hitter
Topic 2 - A flat-tax would be good for the U.S.
Topic 3 - George Bush walks funny


Judging panel from American Idol will determine the winning debater in each category.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ed,

While there's a lot of stuff that could definitely be better, I think the core elements that cause the problems you speak of stem from the fundamental nature of the game. It's a game built around conflict with people competing against each other trying to take all of their money. I believe a large part of the change you're seeing is due to the fact that (at least in the games I play) a higher and higher percentage of people seem to be doing this for their livelihood now, leading to a greater degree of stress and conflict in many cases. In the few years that I've been playing, it's been very clear to me that along w/ a lot of really great people, the poker world also contains many of the sleaziest, scuzziest characters around. Sure it would be a more pleasant environment if this element was not part of the game, but I just consider it part of the deal. Now, that's not exactly what you're talking about here, but I think it's very related.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true. Along with out of control egos in the cardrooms.

I find the cool people that are pleasant to play with stand out quite a bit. It irks me when they get berated constantly. Hey, they're just playing the game trying to enjoy themselves. Poker seems to really bring out the pettiness and ugliness in people. Ugly losers and ugly winners that throw it in everyones face how great they are because they just hit their miracle cards. I actually could give a sh*t less about alot of the people I play against.(which kinda sucks really so I kinda see Ed's point that way) I find it refreshing when I'm playing against players that just enjoy playing. Regardless of how good they are.

On a monetary note: Alot of these new, wannabe f-tards should learn where the money comes from in this game.

It's nice to hear Carson hasn't changed much.

b

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

Heh... just checked out RGP and noticed a thread that was bashing the Fundamental Theorem of Poker.

Carson basically says that is worthless, then goes on to make an argument in SUPPORT of it (putting your opponents on a range of hands then making your decision based on that).

I don't understand what he doesn't understand about it!

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]


I've just been feeling more bummed out in general with how people in poker treat each other over the past year or so. Just a general feeling of, "This sucks." For whatever reason, I felt like sharing it tonight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mr. Miller,

Yes a lot of people here treat each other pretty badly. It's a byproduct of the game of poker, and also of holding discussions with people you hardly know. That's how other people are. I would remind you that the only thing you can control is how you are.

Also, while a lot of poker players are seem mean on the surface, those are just words. At least they tend not to burn other people's breakfasts.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow.. they're talking about me a lot today on RGP.

Lately I've been bummed about poker in general, and it's because of how negative things are getting. The comments at the table are getting more vicious and personal, IMO. Everyone's a "donkey" these days... everyone's got a chip on their shoulder.

Lawmakers are trying to criminalize poker in multiple venues. That gets me down.

I've never posted on RGP in my life, and apparently they gotta blast me in multiple threads today. I guess.

Everyone's busto. Let's talk smack about people. OOT's full of snarky BS... Sure, it's clever one-liners and stuff, but just because people laugh at it doesn't mean it's not still really negative.

I'm not saying I'm an angel or anything... particularly a couple of years ago (and still to some extent now), I used to flame and disrespect with the best of them. Well, with the mediocre of them at least. That sucks.

I can't undo my past, but I apologize today to anyone I was negative to. I've really tried my best the last year or two to be positive when I can and to keep my yap shut when I can't be positive.

I feel like I've matured in the last couple of years... and in that maturing process, I've lost some of the love I used to feel for poker. Reading 2+2 kinda makes me sad sometimes. I dunno...

It's late and I'm tired, and I'm sure this will look sappy in the morning. But I think there's way too much hate in poker these days. I think that sucks. I hope people agree with me and try to make poker a little more positive in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, those queers sure messed you up bad. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've just been feeling more bummed out in general with how people in poker treat each other over the past year or so. Just a general feeling of, "This sucks." For whatever reason,

[/ QUOTE ]

And that's why I don't bother with the vast majority of the forums on 2+2. And why I keep chat turned off when playing online.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

I always like to bash those who are constantly complaining that 2+2 is going downhill, but I have finally realized that certain forums on here are no better than RGP. There is a different feeling on these forum than there once was.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]

I've never posted on RGP in my life, and apparently they gotta blast me in multiple threads today. I guess.


[/ QUOTE ]

RGP is garbage. Nothing said there in the last 5 years is worth anything.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've just been feeling more bummed out in general with how people in poker treat each other over the past year or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being in a profession where your goal is to hunt down idiots and people with a self-destructive addiction in order to take all their money is not really conducive to a healthy psyche.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry if I said anything if you feel it contributed in hurting you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not personally hurt. In general, I find people are exceptionally nice to me... to be honest, I'm a bit surprised people don't blast me more often.

I've just been feeling more bummed out in general with how people in poker treat each other over the past year or so. Just a general feeling of, "This sucks." For whatever reason, I felt like sharing it tonight.

[/ QUOTE ]

[shameless compliments]
My wife, who had no idea who you were before the Queer Eye episode, is now an instant fan. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I first read Play Poker Like a Pro. Boy was that bad, but at the time it actually taught me that poker was more than about drinking beer and throwing money in a pot. Then I read SSHE and it blew my mind. It single handedly taught me more about poker than any other book.

In short, tho it's a lame "suck up" sounding post, you've done a lot of good for this community, Ed. Don't let the haters get you down.
[/shamless complement]

Ray

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

I think a lot of the decline just has to do with the number of people playing. In some of the smaller online cardrooms people are still pleasant to one another in chat. It seems its easier to consistently talk trash when you're not seeing the same people over and over again.

Its the same with OOT as well. OOT was fun when it was smaller and threads hung around the first page for more than a few minutes.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this darryl person the same one that posts as Rizzo on RGP and is always challenging people to wagers that he reneges on?

I thought he was banned from this site.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this darryl person the same one that posts as Rizzo on RGP and is always challenging people to wagers that he reneges on?

I thought he was banned from this site.

[/ QUOTE ]

Razzo. And, sadly, he isn't banned.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

Razzo,

Most people are aware of your long history with Carson on RGP, and it would appear to some as though you are using Ed as a conduit for your own personal vendetta. This possibly makes you look worse than Carson.

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

then who's picture is it that he has as his avatar?

This is the picture of Razzo I have seen posted on RGP.

http://www.razzo.com/razzoincrimestory2.html

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

OK, somebody help a mod here.

The last thing I want is some usenet flame war spilling onto NVG. Can somebody provide me with some backstory and links here?

Re: Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
then who's picture is it that he has as his avatar?

This is the picture of Razzo I have seen posted on RGP.

http://www.razzo.com/razzoincrimestory2.html

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the avatar Norman Chad?