Cheating at WSEX
 

Recently, I noticed that WSEX was spreading multiple 10/20 games. I made a deposit on Monday, 6/5/06, and began playing whenever I was able to play 3 games. I played on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday with very mediocre results. I did not play on Thursday, but played 2.5 hours on Friday. I got creamed for a little over 1K. During my play on Friday I noticed something was wrong, but was unable to put a finger on it. There were several games, most were not full, and I was playing in 3 of them. After I played, I went to my PokerTracker database and hand histories and found that players were cheating.

The players were cheating by coming into the game without having to post. They would get into the game (without posting), play till their blind came up and then leave. They would then comeback, doing the same thing over and over again. One player did this for the entire 2.5 hours I played on Friday. But there were quite a few doing it. Looking back at previous day, shows that it was being done in the games I was playing all week. I never noticed.

The players were exploiting a bug in the software. I was NOT able to do it, but these players certainly did. They played hands, they NEVER paid a blind. They would come in at the cutoff and play till the big blind. How could they lose? How could I win?

I was totally taken off-guard by this. I did not know what to do. I gave it a day, then contacted support on Saturday. I told them what was being done, as well as players names that were doing it. I asked that I be returned the net amount lost during the week ($700). They respond that they will look into it and get back to me in 24 hours. I hear nothing from them on Sunday, and I send another email on Monday. Again they tell me they are looking into it. I hear nothing and today (Tuesday) I fire off the following email...

[ QUOTE ]
Four days is long enough. I have described that players are coming into the
games without having to post (utilizing a bug in your system) then playing
till their blinds and leaving. This is then repeated over and over again.
I have given you names of players doing this. Both of the players did this
or 2.5 hours while I played on multiple tables Friday at which time I lost
1058. It should take a total of 5 min. to see this clearly. A cursory
glance at my Poker Tracker database has shown other players doing this
throughout the week I played. I am asking for the 701 that I lost during
the course of the week to be returned, that is all.

Your site does not have the safeguards in place to stop such behavior. Your
site does not monitor the games for shady behaviour. Your site does not
provide the necessary protection to the players. Even after blatant
cheating is found, your site is unwilling to do anything to correct the
situation, help the player being cheated, or make the necessary reparations.
In fact it is even questionable if you have even looked into the situation.
Stall and delay is your only response.

I simply can not let this go on. I will be making a post on the twoplustwo
internet poker forum. You can respond there.


[/ QUOTE ]

Support responds back stating they are having an update at the end of the week to fix software issues. They are aware of the issue. They are having a problem with the issue. The update should correct the issue. After I respond, I receive another email stating I will not be receiving my money back. Basically they have known about it, have done nothing to stop it, and don't care if you lost money due to it.

Players wishing to see if it was done while they were playing simply need to look at the session notes tab in pokertracker. It will be obvious. Also cycling through games in the replayer shows some of the 'longer' sessions that pokertracker groups as a single session.

Cliff Notes: Played at WSEX, found cheating, contacted support, support does nothing.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

wow, this is pretty bad, hope you get a refund or a stop is put to this.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

They're fixing it, thats good. I can't see them giving youu your money back, it may not even have been "technically" against their rules, therefore not cheating.

Not saying it doesn't suck, but I don't see you getting your money back.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

How do you not notice this while its happening? Isnt it unusual that 2 or 3 players would get up every round. Even if you didnt realize it was the same players, you really should notice people getting up almost constantly.

From my experience at 10/20, the table doesnt change that drastically, Im sure I would notice if a table at ANY limit changed this often

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

I have seen this free blinding in at WSEX also. Players come in right after the button passes and click "sit out next hand" and they sit out for a hand. and then they come back and get their next hand dealt to them blind free for several hands until the big blind comes up. You can read in the chat what is going on. "xxxx is Sitting out" the "xxxx is back".

I saw this happen many weeks ago

I stopped playing at WSEX awhile back not for this reason and I am not planning on playing there again so "letting the cat out of the bag" isn't important to me. Perhaps it will be for the better for everyone if WSEX sees this thread and fixes this problem.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have seen this free blinding in at WSEX also. Players come in right after the button passes and click "sit out next hand" and they sit out for a hand. and then they come back and get their next hand dealt to them blind free for several hands until the big blind comes up. You can read in the chat what is going on. "xxxx is Sitting out" the "xxxx is back".

I saw this happen many weeks ago

I stopped playing at WSEX awhile back not for this reason and I am not planning on playing there again so "letting the cat out of the bag" isn't important to me. Perhaps it will be for the better for everyone if WSEX sees this thread and fixes this problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you could make a lot of risk-free rakeback money by sitting at the highest levels, never playing a hand, and just doing this for hours. For [censored] and giggles you could throw in AA, KK, and AK suited.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

yeh i wrote to support about this like a week ago.. they are suppose to have an update asap .. i am waiting until they do til i start playing again.. even though the site is great.. Yeh they really need to get on top of this one.. a ridiculous bug for them to have.. Cardcrusade.com is another almost rakefree site by the way too.. while wsex is down cuz of that bug.. mike

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have seen this free blinding in at WSEX also. Players come in right after the button passes and click "sit out next hand" and they sit out for a hand. and then they come back and get their next hand dealt to them blind free for several hands until the big blind comes up. You can read in the chat what is going on. "xxxx is Sitting out" the "xxxx is back".

I saw this happen many weeks ago

I stopped playing at WSEX awhile back not for this reason and I am not planning on playing there again so "letting the cat out of the bag" isn't important to me. Perhaps it will be for the better for everyone if WSEX sees this thread and fixes this problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you could make a lot of risk-free rakeback money by sitting at the highest levels, never playing a hand, and just doing this for hours. For [censored] and giggles you could throw in AA, KK, and AK suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cannot. Their method of calculating rakeback requires that you contribute to pots to get any rakeback. Doing this, never posting or playing a hand, will make you $0 rakeback.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

i dont understand why you would be reimbursed for money lost..

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

BrianWalter,

The players who don't post will get rakeback on the pots they win. Obviously these people will play very strong hands and win some pots and get rakeback on those pots.

I think a non blind paying player would not make a significant amout of rakeback but they almost certianly wouldn't need much rakeback to have a tremendous edge in the game.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

the suggestion that brainwalter was responding to was that you could just sit-out/sit-in and NEVER play a hand and NEVER play a blind and still receive rake-back.

He was pointing out that WPEX does not calculate RB that way. You would just make $0.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

You're just an affiliate shill that is afraid of losing your business to free rakeback!!!!!!!!1111iiione

There, now it's a real WSEX thread.

OK seriously, that's pretty bad.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

[ QUOTE ]
He was pointing out that WPEX does not calculate RB that way. You would just make $0.

[/ QUOTE ]

But they do.

Rake is calculated by uncontributed rake.

So get dealt free cards and get free money as rakeback with no risk.

ToT

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

havana,

No, it is contributed.

all,

I guess this is why they put all that legal mumbo jumbo in their T&C about "not being responsible for blah blah blah". oh, and why they're offshore.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

WPEX (And others here) SAY you have to be in the pot to get the RB.
But I'm not convinced this is the case.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

Can anyone confirm this? I've played 15k hands between 5/10 and 10/20 and I've never seen anyone do this. I definitely would have noticed if they had been.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

[ QUOTE ]
WPEX (And others here) SAY you have to be in the pot to get the RB.
But I'm not convinced this is the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wonder why.

ToT

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

I notified them of this several months ago. After not receiving any response I just quit playing there.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can anyone confirm this? I've played 15k hands between 5/10 and 10/20 and I've never seen anyone do this. I definitely would have noticed if they had been.

[/ QUOTE ]

...nor have I seen it at those limits. Frequently there's a waitlist for games, so hopping in and out would often not be possible.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

This is one of the reasons I'm hesitant to play at WPEX. When they aren't really making anything from the poker room I can't imagine they put many resources towards catching cheaters.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

I hope you don't get a refund, what does someone skipping the blinds have to do with you losing.......absolutely nothing. Give me a break.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

[ QUOTE ]
I notified them of this several months ago. After not receiving any response I just quit playing there.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for the heads up [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

bwana

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I notified them of this several months ago. After not receiving any response I just quit playing there.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for the heads up [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

bwana

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I considered posting it here but then I thought that if they were unwilling to fix it I wouldn't want to spread the word that this glitch exists because I'm sure many people here would abuse it.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

Considering how long WSEX has had a card room, I'm amazed at some of the major bugs they have in their software.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

Ugly. Ugly, ugly, ugly. So has it been fixed yet, or what?

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

I noticed this (the sitting out a hand then coming back) but for some reason I never caught on why people have been doing that. I believe years ago Planet Poker had the same type of bug. Anyway, I did tests and you don't have to contribute to the pot to get rakeback, just have to be dealt cards. Anybody can test this out for themselves by just playing a few hands, keeping track, and then closing the table and checking the rake. Using this method of cheating, these guys were probably able to make a fortune without risking anything!! Unbelievable!

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

What if you had won 700$ because of them skipping blinds. You would call WSEX for theives for taking your 700$ that you "earned".

there is a real problem with the software, yes. but not way you should get money back.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

well by tomorrow there will be 20x more doing this, that's for sure

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

[ QUOTE ]
what does someone skipping the blinds have to do with you losing.......absolutely nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

You suck at poker.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you don't get a refund, what does someone skipping the blinds have to do with you losing.......absolutely nothing. Give me a break.

[/ QUOTE ]

Play Heads up? Only you place the blind since it doesn't matter?

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what does someone skipping the blinds have to do with you losing.......absolutely nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

You suck at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you don't get a refund, what does someone skipping the blinds have to do with you losing.......absolutely nothing. Give me a break.

[/ QUOTE ]

Soooo......you skip blinds at WPEX, eh?

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

[ QUOTE ]

But they do.

Rake is calculated by uncontributed rake.

So get dealt free cards and get free money as rakeback with no risk.

ToT

[/ QUOTE ]

I really didn't believe this was possible, but I just made a "free" $0.66 by using the exploit for one orbit of 2/4 and the above is sadly correct. I reported this to WPEX asking them to remove the money from my rakeback account and take $2 from my account and give it to the guy who won the hand when I should have posted a blind.

I won't be playing at WPEX again until this is fixed.

J

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

I dont know about you all, but the little devil on my shoulder is telling me to log onto WPEX and abuse this bug.

Someone kill this thread before more little devils start talking.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know about you all, but the little devil on my shoulder is telling me to log onto WPEX and abuse this bug.

Someone kill this thread before more little devils start talking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell, yeah. I mean how can you turn down free money? And conversely, I think if people abuse the holy hell out of this software bug it will make them fix it quicker.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

[ QUOTE ]

I dont know about you all, but the little devil on my shoulder is telling me to log onto WPEX and abuse this bug.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect WPEX will be looking for it more carefully now and might actually ban people who abuse it (I'm pretty sure they banned some of the "tournament bug abusers" back when that was an issue). I wouldn't want to risk missing out on 100% rakeback.

FWIW, here's my letter to support...I'll post any response I get.

EDIT: Email removed due to lack of common sense....

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

I would just like to say, this is absolutely DISGUSTING that a blatant error like this isn't fixed. I'm stuck a few grand on there even with the rakeback, whatever, that's life. I don't know how much I can attribute to this CHEATING that there software is enabling, but I certainly have posted EVERY BLIND I've had to.

That such a blatant glitch has been allowed to exist even after they've been told about it for MONTHS is a joke. This bug costs honest players money.

Jeff

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

hey jason, take down that email of yours, it explains how to do it...and not everybody can find out themselves...

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

[ QUOTE ]
...After I played, I went to my PokerTracker database and hand histories and found that players were cheating.

The players were cheating by coming into the game without having to post. They would get into the game (without posting), play till their blind came up and then leave. They would then comeback, doing the same thing over and over again. One player did this for the entire 2.5 hours I played on Friday. But there were quite a few doing it. Looking back at previous day, shows that it was being done in the games I was playing all week. I never noticed.

The players were exploiting a bug in the software. I was NOT able to do it, but these players certainly did. They played hands, they NEVER paid a blind. They would come in at the cutoff and play till the big blind.

I gave it a day, then contacted support on Saturday. I told them what was being done, as well as players names that were doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to put you on the spot, but can you let us know which players were doing this?

Not to sound skeptical but I can't skip the blinds freely and haven't noticed anyone else doing it either. Whether coming into a game, or coming in after the blinds, each time I'm prompted to post.

If there are players playing without posting, can you speculate how, as it appears neither you nor I are able to do it.

Re: Cheating at WSEX
 

Good post, I knew something fishy was going on lately, the play was that strange, but couldn't put my finger on it.

What ever happened to the TUESDAY update? I have had no prompt telling me to download the latest version.