Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

25+13 add-on tournament today at the Peppermill. We are in the third blind round and I am in the big blind. 3 limpers in late position and the sb completes.

I am dealt 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and check

Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks, and I look down at my stack to contemplate how much I want to bet, then i begin stacking the correct chip amounts (as I do this I hear the old lady on the other side of the table check.) I fire out a bet. Dealer stops me and says, "what are you doing...it has already checked around?"

I clearly never made any check motion or said check...in fact I made no sound at all. The guy to the right of me, in the sb, was wondering what was going on as well. So the dealer calls the floor over, and this is the floors ruling:

The lady said that it was my fault for not stopping the action going around the table once I heard it. She said that because they all checked behind me, there was 'significant action' and that I could no longer bet. So it seems to me that she was blaming me for not controlling the actions of the other players acting out of turn. I think this is ridiculous.

I only heard the one old lady check, I heard no one else check. Many players check out of turn all the time so I just chalked that ladies check up to inexperience.

The ruling made me pull back my bet and let the action check around as it did. The turn put another high card and heart on the board and I was forced out by a bet from a big stack.

Any ideas or knowledge of how this should have been ruled or whose responsibility it is? I think it's pretty ignorant to blame a player.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's pretty ignorant to blame a player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody is blaming anyone. You can protect or not protect your action. If you don't protect it, you will lose it if the players behind you act. You have to pay attention at the table so you can speak up to protect yourself.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

Something similar happened to me a while back. Live game at a casino. Two limpers, I call in the SB, raised pre-flop by the BB. The cards are not really important. Flop comes, I take a second to look at it, look down at my stack, reach for some chips, hear the BB yell "CHECK!", as my chips hit the felt the second limper (who was a dealer/floor at the casino and also drunk) makes a big stink that I had seen three people check behind me. I was too busy moving my chips to see what had happened, but apparently the two limpers instachecked behind the BB. I start to protest. She immediately calls for a floor decision, who decides I have to pull my bet back.

The dealer burns. Deals the turn.

The BB yells, "CHECK!".

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

BB checks,


and I look down at my stack to contemplate how much I want to bet,








then i begin stacking the correct chip amounts (as I do this I hear the old lady on the other side of the table check.)








I fire out a bet.



Most clubs have a "same day" rule.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

Tough situation. An argument could be made either way. One could say that your hand moved or something, as many people check non-verbally.

If the action continued past you, I would have immediately said something.

Most dealers catch this and take the action back, but occasionally, there can be distractions that can cause a dealer to miss the action of one player, and it is further compounded when action continues past the player.

The best way to avoid this in the future is to immediately announce "Bet", and then figure out how much you want to bet.

Good luck!

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

One thing you always have to keep in mind is that there are quite a number of ways that players "check" and many of them are quite subtle.

It is not uncommon for a player to not even realize that he made a motion that the dealer and the other players may interpret as a check. You say you were stacking your chips. Well some players check by picking up a chips and giving a single tap of the stack (setting them down). Another problem that one that drives me nuts as a dealer is the shrug of the shoulders with the a slight hand movement. Some people do this to indicate that they are thinking and others do it to indicate a check. I routinely have players who check wiggling a single finger. Well when its there turn i never no if they were checking or making an unconscious motion of the finger.

Its not as cut and dry as declaring yourself 100% blame free from the situation. You need to be aware of the whole table so that you can stop the action if your action is misinterpretted.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

I usually say "bet" when the action comes to me and then comtemplate my bet amount. Simple, clear, and avoids the avoids the above situation, which I have seen similar situations happen.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

AThermopyle,

I understand not taking too long, but I guess you misunderstood the length of time I spent thinking and then firing the bet out. Tops 10 seconds thinking and then 10 seconds stacking the bet amount. I wasn't sitting there staring people down and trying to see through their soul. I don't think its very uncommon or out of line to take 10-20 seconds to act.

all,
I guess I should have said bet or announced a bet amount before stacking the chips. The problem is I am generally a very quiet/shy player in live games, especially NL tournaments. I kind of clam up and just play my game without much speaking. I just feel that it is the dealer responsibility to keep the game in line. Most dealers ask if you checked if it is ambiguous. They usually kind of motion their hand towards you and wait for a response. The dealer I had was kind of in lala land the whole tournament.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think its very uncommon or out of line to take 10-20 seconds to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an eternity at a poker table. If you are going to take this long you should ask for time. This situation isn't really a matter of acting too slowly, it is a matter of not paying attention. When players after you act you have an obligation to speak up to protect your action. I can't speak to your particulat situation, but I have seen many players that are new to a B&M look down at their chips to decide how much to bet and are completly unaware fo what is happening at the table.

In another thread someone claimed that B&M happens much faster than online and was ridiculed. Obviously online moves faster; however, until one gets used to it B&M moves too fast for someone that is new to B&M. There are a lot of different things one must be aware of in a B&M; pot size, protecting your hand, protecting your action, etc.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

Randy, this is something I've been thinking about lately. When I haven't acted and I hear, "check" behind me...

What should I do? My immediate reaction in a situation like this is to simply say, "Wait!" Probably with a hand motion like I'm waiting to be called on in elementary school with my upraised hand somewhere over the table.

Should that be sufficient? Can I eliminate the hand action?

Yes, I'm a B&M n00b.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

I don't think 10 seconds is too long in a tournement, 20 seconds may be a little longer than normal for a player in a hand, but I don't think it is an eternity. 10-20 seconds may seem like a long time in a 5/10 or 10/20 limit game, but in a tournament there is usually more to think about.

Also, I am not a highly experienced B&M player. I play some ring games, but this was only my third B&M tournament. I guess I'm not used to counting out my chips using different denominations yet.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Randy, this is something I've been thinking about lately. When I haven't acted and I hear, "check" behind me...

What should I do? My immediate reaction in a situation like this is to simply say, "Wait!" Probably with a hand motion like I'm waiting to be called on in elementary school with my upraised hand somewhere over the table.

Should that be sufficient? Can I eliminate the hand action?

Yes, I'm a B&M n00b.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Wait" "Stop" and "Time" are all good choices. What is important to remmeber is this is not the time to be overly polite or timid; if you see someone acting behind you you have a responsibility to speak up right now or you are considered to have accpeted the action.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think 10 seconds is too long in a tournement, 20 seconds may be a little longer than normal for a player in a hand, but I don't think it is an eternity. 10-20 seconds may seem like a long time in a 5/10 or 10/20 limit game, but in a tournament there is usually more to think about.

Also, I am not a highly experienced B&M player. I play some ring games, but this was only my third B&M tournament. I guess I'm not used to counting out my chips using different denominations yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The next time you are in a casino watch a poker game and the second hand on your watch. Take a look at how much can happen on the table in 10 seconds. If you need 10 seconds to make a decision that is long enough to ask for time so the dealer won't be telling you to act (or in some places even be banging on the table).

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

Three checks behind is not significant action.

If there had been a bet and three folds, maybe. But "check" "check" "check"...there's no harm in letting you bet (especially since it's a dealer error).

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Three checks behind is not significant action.

If there had been a bet and three folds, maybe. But "check" "check" "check"...there's no harm in letting you bet (especially since it's a dealer error).

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking is action and if you don't think that there is harm in allowing a player to bet after three players behind him have checked you don't have a very firm grasp of the game.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

its very simple.

the dealer announces "check" as players are checking. At what point did you think it necessary to inform the table that you had not checked? After everyone else had checked behind and you had that added information?

Its the players responsibility to follow the action and protect their own action.

Where does this idea that its the dealer's responsibilty to babysit all the players? If the dealer announces that you checked and you didn't, or another player checks behind you out of turn, simply announce, "wait! I haven't acted" immediately.

Simply: If you don't understand the rules, things like this are going to happen, and its not the dealer's fault when it does.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

take as long as you wish.

just, if players act behind you, announce quickly that you haven't checked.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

if there was a good amount of action behind you then the floor is right you did not protect your self. Instead of fireing out the bet, as soon as you hear another "check" stop the action tell the dealer you havent acted. If you tried to stop it and then the players tried to do a quick check you have an argument. By just "throwing a bet" out there with out saying a word it doens't look kosher.

Inexperience on both your parts but the dealer has some responsibilty too but to control action but they make mistakes, but you need to protect yours as well.

Be glad anyway sounds like the nits would have called there flush draws for the price your going to give [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Three checks behind is not significant action.

If there had been a bet and three folds, maybe. But "check" "check" "check"...there's no harm in letting you bet (especially since it's a dealer error).

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking is action and if you don't think that there is harm in allowing a player to bet after three players behind him have checked you don't have a very firm grasp of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Three people folding to a bet and a raise is 'significant' action. Three people checking is almost the complete absence of action.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Checking is action and if you don't think that there is harm in allowing a player to bet after three players behind him have checked you don't have a very firm grasp of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Three people folding to a bet and a raise is 'significant' action. Three people checking is almost the complete absence of action.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no difference in the 'amount of action' between a check, bet, or raise. For the person on the fence about whether they should bet (not talking about OP), three checks behind him is very significant information.

In the B&Ms I frequent, 3 people acting behind you is always considered significant action, and you will not be allowed to bet.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

yn,

So you are looking at your stack not doing anything for TEN SECONDS? And then, you are playing with your chips for ANOTHER TEN SECONDS? And you haven't said anything this whole time? And people are checking around the table. And you are surprised everyone assumed you checked? Pay attention next time and try to act faster.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
its very simple.

the dealer announces "check" as players are checking. At what point did you think it necessary to inform the table that you had not checked? After everyone else had checked behind and you had that added information?

Its the players responsibility to follow the action and protect their own action.

Where does this idea that its the dealer's responsibilty to babysit all the players? If the dealer announces that you checked and you didn't, or another player checks behind you out of turn, simply announce, "wait! I haven't acted" immediately.

Simply: If you don't understand the rules, things like this are going to happen, and its not the dealer's fault when it does.

[/ QUOTE ]

for what it's worth, the dealer said nothing. The only thing I heard before betting was one check from the old lady across the table. If I had heard another check I would have spoken up, but one person checking out of turn is a very very common thing especially for an old lady. I understand the game, I just did not think it was my responsibility to make sure everyone else does.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
yn,

So you are looking at your stack not doing anything for TEN SECONDS? And then, you are playing with your chips for ANOTHER TEN SECONDS? And you haven't said anything this whole time? And people are checking around the table. And you are surprised everyone assumed you checked? Pay attention next time and try to act faster.

[/ QUOTE ]

After further thought on how much ten seconds really is, I do not think it took me this long. I thought about it for probbaly 3-5 seconds, and it took me probably 5-7 seconds to count out the bet in chips.

Basically the way I remembered it was I waited for the SB to check, then I thought for a second and looked at the other players (not ten seconds of this), then I looked down to count out the bet. While counting out the bet I heard the one check, and by the time I bet the tabled had checked around.

And also, I made absolutely no check motion, I said nothing, and the only thing I did with my hands was count out chips. Isn't it the dealers responsibility to determine whether I have checked or not? If there is ambiguity, shouldn't he ask me if I checked?

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
And also, I made absolutely no check motion, I said nothing, and the only thing I did with my hands was count out chips. Isn't it the dealers responsibility to determine whether I have checked or not? If there is ambiguity, shouldn't he ask me if I checked?


[/ QUOTE ]

If he sees you have cards and isn't sure he should ask you. Sometimes the dealer doesn't see your cards and skips over you.

Also with tho old lady hearing one person check out of turn is enough that you MUST speak up, if one checks out of turn and you don't speak up/ge tthe dealer's attention you have accepted the action as being proper.

Someone in this thread mentioned the dealer saying "check." The dealer should not be saying "check" the dealer should move the action wiht their eyes. When the dealer tries to call out the checks he will slow the action and/or confuse the players. An example the first player checks. The next player and the dealer see this at the same time. Now if the dealer tries to say "check" at the same timet he second player bets the third player is left wondering what is going on becasue the dealer is saying "check" at the same time he sees chips coming out fo the second player's hand. Typically the dealer should announce when the amount of the bet changes (bets and raises). In small games the dealer might announce the first check to gt the players moving.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

yet the floor came over and everyone concurs that they checked behind you? this was a mute game? noone said check and the dealer just ignored the checking, but everyone could follow what was happening except you?

Well, that was your problem then. You were obviously playing "bizarro poker" on the planet neptune where everything happens different than everywhere else- to your distinct disadvantage.

bad beat man. I'd stop playing there...neptune I mean. Start playing at the numerous B&M casinoes I play at where I have but to watch and listen and I can follow the game just as well as the rest of table.

Re: Floor ruling - who\'s fault is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think its very uncommon or out of line to take 10-20 seconds to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you're the guy.

Seriously, it's up to you to protect your action. Say "bet" and then take as long as you need to get the chips out. Or say "time" and think about your bet. Ten or twenty seconds to act without saying anything is way too long. You also could easily make a motion that could be interpreted as a check.