Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

PokerStars Game #5267470230: Tournament #26529987, $210+$15 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2006/06/16 - 00:56:00 (ET)
Table '26529987 1' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Suited-Hooks (1750 in chips)
Seat 2: loschoad (1550 in chips)
Seat 3: RaiNKhAN (1470 in chips)
Seat 4: hoopjones (680 in chips)
Seat 5: Bonsy (1400 in chips)
Seat 6: nutboy1 (1630 in chips)
Seat 7: cool0813 (1480 in chips)
Seat 8: billifer69 (1460 in chips)
Seat 9: KINGK0NG (2080 in chips)
cool0813: posts small blind 15
billifer69: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RaiNKhAN [Jc Ts]
KINGK0NG: folds
Suited-Hooks said, "ty.. hard to make much off of it though"
Suited-Hooks: folds
loschoad: calls 30
RaiNKhAN: calls 30
hoopjones: folds
Bonsy: folds
loschoad said, "though something smelt fishy"
nutboy1: folds
cool0813: calls 15
billifer69: checks
*** FLOP *** [4s Js Tc]
cool0813: checks
billifer69: bets 90
loschoad: raises 180 to 270
RaiNKhAN: raises 310 to 580
cool0813: folds
billifer69: folds
loschoad: raises 940 to 1520 and is all-in
RaiNKhAN: calls 860 and is all-in
RaiNKhAN said, "heh, vnh"
*** TURN *** [4s Js Tc] [7c]
*** RIVER *** [4s Js Tc 7c] [9d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
loschoad: shows [Th Td] (three of a kind, Tens)
RaiNKhAN: shows [Jc Ts] (two pair, Jacks and Tens)
RaiNKhAN said, "gg."
loschoad collected 3090 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3090 | Rake 0
Board [4s Js Tc 7c 9d]
Seat 1: Suited-Hooks folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: loschoad showed [Th Td] and won (3090) with three of a kind, Tens
Seat 3: RaiNKhAN showed [Jc Ts] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Tens
Seat 4: hoopjones folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Bonsy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: nutboy1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: cool0813 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: billifer69 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: KINGK0NG folded before Flop (didn't bet)


who folds top 2 here?

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

Not me.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

I go broke there everytime khan

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

I dislike your mini-reraise. Either call and get it all in on the turn or just push flop, your reraise looks uber-scary and will fold off hands you want action from.

btw
How are you doing in the $225s/$555s? You've done pretty well in the ones I've been in.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

gut told me i was beat, then logic and re-analysis told me I was beat. hot damn u can put a brand new shiny nickel i wont do this donk stuff again [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

I fold preflop [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] but I doubt Im folding here. I also dont like the minraise on the flop.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dislike your mini-reraise. Either call and get it all in on the turn or just push flop, your reraise looks uber-scary and will fold off hands you want action from.

btw
How are you doing in the $225s/$555s? You've done pretty well in the ones I've been in.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm doing good.

edit: may i ask who are you on stars?

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

fold pf allin on the flop

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold pf allin on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

excuse me? i dont understand

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

easy fold preflop.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

obviously I can fold it preflop but I called with the intention of hitting two pair, not one pair.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
easy fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]


thats what the fold pf from the last post meant. the idea, as you well know, is to not get yourself in trouble early with a hand like this when you dont have to, just not worth it, keep it tight this early.

as played, i dont think youre folding flop...i would not, but i would also just shove over his raise to 200 instead of min raise.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

ok i see the result so that may be influencing my opinion (plus i'm generally weak-tight), but what do you beat exactly? first shover raises flop, announcing that he has something pretty decent...then you re-raise behind him like you don't care, with the guy who bet out still live behind you, and yet he still shoves? it's hard to figure he could expect to have FE with a hand like spades or KQ, so the only draw i could see him having is KsQs. An overpair is unlikely given the preflop action if nothing else, plus even if he somehow overlimped with AA, surely it wasn't with the idea of stuffing his stack in against heavy action in an unraised pot with a JTx flop? And a weaker two pair makse no sense. IMO his range is exactly JT/44/TT/JT/KsQs, so whether you should call or not depends on how much weight you want to give to the KsQs/JT possibilities. But, it's thin since you barely have odds even if you give full weight to those possibilities...OTOH some players would probably just open-fold JT there preflop, and many would raise TT/JJ...hmm.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

uh fold preflop.
once you call preflop, you are going to lose all your chips.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

Easy fold PF. JTo in EP is pure trash.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

i never call PF

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

How is my hand EP? it's MP

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

RainKhan congrats, I just saw you take down a $525.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

My bad. Read HH wrong. Still not much better, still easy fold.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
RainKhan congrats, I just saw you take down a $525.

[/ QUOTE ]

ty

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

Oh, and one more thing as a side question:

Would anyone here mind explaining to me the difference between chipEV and $EV. Thank you.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and one more thing as a side question:

Would anyone here mind explaining to me the difference between chipEV and $EV. Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

the chipEV of a play reflects how many chips you figure to have as a result of that play. the $EV of the same play reflects how much those chips figure to be worth in real money terms, given the tournament's payout structure.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and one more thing as a side question:

Would anyone here mind explaining to me the difference between chipEV and $EV. Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

the chipEV of a play reflects how many chips you figure to have as a result of that play. the $EV of the same play reflects how much those chips figure to be worth in real money terms, given the tournament's payout structure.

[/ QUOTE ]

okay well i understand the $EV thinggy, but this chipEV is hard for me to grasp atm...should one even use chipEV when evaluating a decision in a SNG or is $EV all you need? If I am wrong please correct me because this is a new concept to me and I have no idea how to apply it because I still don't know what you're talking about. thank you.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

You should use $EV.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

A lot of the time (especially early), you can use cEV to estimate EV.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and one more thing as a side question:

Would anyone here mind explaining to me the difference between chipEV and $EV. Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

the chipEV of a play reflects how many chips you figure to have as a result of that play. the $EV of the same play reflects how much those chips figure to be worth in real money terms, given the tournament's payout structure.

[/ QUOTE ]

okay well i understand the $EV thinggy, but this chipEV is hard for me to grasp atm...should one even use chipEV when evaluating a decision in a SNG or is $EV all you need? If I am wrong please correct me because this is a new concept to me and I have no idea how to apply it because I still don't know what you're talking about. thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, $EV is all that matters in both cash games and SnGs. It's just that in cash games $EV is the same as chipEV since chips are worth their face value & you can cash out any time. when people talk about chipEV in the context of SnGs, it's usually just to set cash game donks right in bubble situations where the money value of chips diverges dramatically from their face value.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and one more thing as a side question:

Would anyone here mind explaining to me the difference between chipEV and $EV. Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how you can be a winner at the $200 and $500 SNGs.

Also, I'm not trying to insult you or anything. This preflop limp is ATROCIOUS (and wtf? "limp to hit two pair, not top pair?"), and you're also asking the difference between chip_EV and $EV? How are you winning at this level of SNGS? Weren't you 30-tabling the lower limits a while ago?

edit: again, not trying to start a flame war. just trying to figure out how a person limping JTo in MP early game and asking what's chip_EV is doing at the $525s.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and one more thing as a side question:

Would anyone here mind explaining to me the difference between chipEV and $EV. Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how you can be a winner at the $200 and $500 SNGs.

Also, I'm not trying to insult you or anything. This preflop limp is ATROCIOUS (and wtf? "limp to hit two pair, not top pair?"), and you're also asking the difference between chip_EV and $EV? How are you winning at this level of SNGS? Weren't you 30-tabling the lower limits a while ago?

edit: again, not trying to start a flame war. just trying to figure out how a person limping JTo in MP early game and asking what's chip_EV is doing at the $525s.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe if you weren't busy asking such atrocious questions you'd be a winning player at the 525's.

edit: you pretty much only insulted me man. thanks for being a complete waste of my time and in general a piece of hazardous nuclear waste in the presence of anyone who finds what I type interesting and beneficial.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and one more thing as a side question:

Would anyone here mind explaining to me the difference between chipEV and $EV. Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how you can be a winner at the $200 and $500 SNGs.

Also, I'm not trying to insult you or anything. This preflop limp is ATROCIOUS (and wtf? "limp to hit two pair, not top pair?"), and you're also asking the difference between chip_EV and $EV? How are you winning at this level of SNGS? Weren't you 30-tabling the lower limits a while ago?

edit: again, not trying to start a flame war. just trying to figure out how a person limping JTo in MP early game and asking what's chip_EV is doing at the $525s.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe if you weren't busy asking such atrocious questions you'd be a winning player at the 525's.

edit: you pretty much only insulted me man. thanks for being a complete waste of my time and in general a piece of hazardous nuclear waste in the presence of anyone who finds what I type interesting and beneficial.

[/ QUOTE ]

knew I should have worded my post differently.

I'm not picking on you. I'm not calling you a bad SNG player. Obviously you have a lot of skill because you've played many SNGs and have a positive track record.

However, the preflop limp is TOTALLY INCORRECT. There's absolutely no reason to be playing a super marginal hand in EP (ok, even MP) after one limper this early in the game. I would fold JTo and JTs 100% of the time here.

That's one point. The second point is not knowing the difference between $eV and chip_eV. I mean, this is answered in the FAQ and even $11 players can generally tell you what each of them is and how they should be used in SNGs (i.e. avoiding coinflips during the early game because it's neutral chip_eV-wise and -$eV).

I apologize if the post offended you. I just wanted to know how a person with such a big flaw in their game and without knowledge of chip/$ev could ascend and be (presumably) a winner at the $555s.

And yeah, I probably shouldn't talk since I'm just a lowly 109s/215s regular.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

fold pf.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
obviously I can fold it preflop but I called with the intention of hitting two pair, not one pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you calling 54o here as well? J9o?

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

RK,

Just woke up and saw this thread. Here we go.

First off, I fold pre-flop just lik everyone else said. I think you said that you called w/ the intention of hitting 2 pair and not 1 so it's good to know you at least won't be going broke with just top pair (and I didn't think you would) but where do you draw the line? If you're limping this hand to hit a monster, you might as well limp every hand to hit a monster and you gotta draw the line somewhere.

OK, well given that you got to a flop, I think you have to go broke on it. You have both a flush draw and a straight draw out and I would think (wrongly in this instance) that TT or JJ would have raised PF. So yeah, I say get it in. I'd feel good about top 2 on this flop.

Moving on... a good way to think about chip EV v. money EV is thinking about a cash game v. a tournament. In a cash game, each chip is worth face value. So cEV = $EV in a cash game. A move either has positive or negative expectation and that's that. In a tournament, you are not playing for the money on the table, you are playing for a portion of the prizepool. Since being eliminated from the tournament leaves you with a 0% chance of winning anything, cEV does not always equal $EV. Sometimes survival outweighs winning chips. The bubble is a common place for this occurance to happen. Sometimes you have to pass on edges you'd take in a cash game because if you lose, you no longer have a chance of winning money.

Anyway, the FAQ can explain all that better than I can. Look for ICM and get familiar with it.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
RK,

Just woke up and saw this thread. Here we go.

First off, I fold pre-flop just lik everyone else said. I think you said that you called w/ the intention of hitting 2 pair and not 1 so it's good to know you at least won't be going broke with just top pair (and I didn't think you would) but where do you draw the line? If you're limping this hand to hit a monster, you might as well limp every hand to hit a monster and you gotta draw the line somewhere.

OK, well given that you got to a flop, I think you have to go broke on it. You have both a flush draw and a straight draw out and I would think (wrongly in this instance) that TT or JJ would have raised PF. So yeah, I say get it in. I'd feel good about top 2 on this flop.

Moving on... a good way to think about chip EV v. money EV is thinking about a cash game v. a tournament. In a cash game, each chip is worth face value. So cEV = $EV in a cash game. A move either has positive or negative expectation and that's that. In a tournament, you are not playing for the money on the table, you are playing for a portion of the prizepool. Since being eliminated from the tournament leaves you with a 0% chance of winning anything, cEV does not always equal $EV. Sometimes survival outweighs winning chips. The bubble is a common place for this occurance to happen. Sometimes you have to pass on edges you'd take in a cash game because if you lose, you no longer have a chance of winning money.

Anyway, the FAQ can explain all that better than I can. Look for ICM and get familiar with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. I appreciate the time you took to explain that to me. GL on your tables!

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and one more thing as a side question:

Would anyone here mind explaining to me the difference between chipEV and $EV. Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how you can be a winner at the $200 and $500 SNGs.

Also, I'm not trying to insult you or anything. This preflop limp is ATROCIOUS (and wtf? "limp to hit two pair, not top pair?"), and you're also asking the difference between chip_EV and $EV? How are you winning at this level of SNGS? Weren't you 30-tabling the lower limits a while ago?

edit: again, not trying to start a flame war. just trying to figure out how a person limping JTo in MP early game and asking what's chip_EV is doing at the $525s.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pf limp is not attrocious if you have game.
Just because some hands are not in the starting hand charts from the books you've read, does not make them attrocious.

Implied odds are huge. On the flop, he had top two pair, which makes the odds of trips much smaller. I would only worry about fours. The guy had the case tens to bust him. It happens.

As for chip EV vs $EV. When you are heasds up, they are the same thing. When you have four people remaining, they are very different. Because you won't see any money if you get knocked out, you need a large edge to make money.
For example, getting all in with 44 vs ATo would be horrible here and actually costs you money under most conditions. If the blinds were huge, things would be diff.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The pf limp is not attrocious if you have game.
Just because some hands are not in the starting hand charts from the books you've read, does not make them attrocious.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is fairly understood that limping this hand is not terrible. I will not go broke on hands like these this early. As displayed, limping this hand will increase variance and if you are playing more than 8+ tables than you dont have time for these creative limps anyway. So, Im not sure how nuch game you think you have but those reasons right there are plenty for me to FOLD PF.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

its not atrocious, its just not good. It can only be SO terrible when you are calling for just 30 chips.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The pf limp is not attrocious if you have game.


[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously...it's really not a big deal

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
its not atrocious, its just not good. It can only be SO terrible when you are calling for just 30 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

o.k...so what do I know....

but I'm with Curtains on this one.

It may not be a GREAT limp...but if you have some game...I see little harm in playing around a little (i.e 'mixing it up') in the early levels.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

Well honestly I think the limp is more of a big deal than people are saying. I think its definitely a bad limp, but not hideous. However anyone who makes this limp in a sit and go almost surely has some problems in their game. However taken on it's own, it's not terrible or anything like that, just clearly not good, or -EV you may call it. Thats just my opinion.

Re: Question in $225 Stars Turbo hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Well honestly I think the limp is more of a big deal than people are saying. I think its definitely a bad limp, but not hideous. However anyone who makes this limp in a sit and go almost surely has some problems in their game. However taken on it's own, it's not terrible or anything like that, just clearly not good, or -EV you may call it. Thats just my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm agreeing 100% with this post and your point