This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

How much do you think WE paid? I'm sorry, I wish nothing but the best for those 2 babies, but come on. To stay just for the free medical treatment? Something is just NOT right with this picture. I went to the bank today, and my favorite teller is in need of a kidney transplant. They have a "donation" jar out for her because she can't afford the treatments, let along the transplant itself. And she works, pays taxes, has health insurance and is a citizen of the USA.

I know from previous dem v rep. posts that most of you are liberals and disagree with what I have written, and I would really like you to explain to me where my thinking is flawed.




Conjoined Twins Successfully Separated

By ALICIA CHANG
The Associated Press
Thursday, June 15, 2006; 1:16 PM

LOS ANGELES -- Regina and Renata Salinas Fierros were "doing great" after doctors separated the 10-month-old conjoined twins and rebuilt their bodies during a daylong operation, a hospital spokeswoman said Thursday.

The twins were transferred early Thursday to side-by-side beds in an intensive care unit after their surgeries were complete, said Childrens Hospital Los Angeles spokeswoman Janet Dotson.

"The girls are doing great," she said.

Ten-month-old Regina and Renata Salinas Fierros were born facing each other, joined from the lower chest to the pelvis. They were fused in several places, including the liver and genitals, they shared a large intestine, and Regina was born with one kidney.

During the operation, doctors made an incision at the breastbone and then divided the internal organs.

Late Wednesday, the young twins spent their first moments apart, when one was wheeled to another room so plastic surgeons could begin the reconstruction work.

Several doctors on the 80-person medical team also took part in the 2003 separation of conjoined twins from a set of triplets at the hospital. Wednesday's surgery was considered more complex because it involved more organs.

Despite the risks, doctors said they expected a successful operation.

"Everything has been going impeccably, as one could possibly imagine," surgical director Dr. Henri Ford said several hours into the surgery.

Conjoined twins occur when a single fertilized egg fails to divide completely. It's estimated that a few hundred pairs of conjoined twins are born globally each year. In the U.S., they occur 1 in every 200,000 live births.

The way that Regina and Renata were fused makes them a rare type of conjoined twins, occurring in about 10 percent of cases.

The twins were born in Los Angeles on Aug. 2, 2005, to Mexican parents who were visiting relatives in the United States. The girls' mother, 23-year-old Sonia, said she didn't realize she was carrying conjoined twins until she was hospitalized with an infection.

The couple extended their tourist visa so that the twins could receive medical care.

The girls were transferred to Childrens Hospital a day after their birth where they underwent tests in preparation for the separation surgery. Doctors implanted inflatable balloons under their skin so that it could expand to cover the surgical wounds after the operation.

Childrens Hospital declined to reveal the operation's cost, which will be covered by a state health program. The hospital previously performed five conjoined twin operations since 1966 including three cases in which both twins survived.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
How much do you think WE paid? I'm sorry, I wish nothing but the best for those 2 babies, but come on. To stay just for the free medical treatment? Something is just NOT right with this picture. I went to the bank today, and my favorite teller is in need of a kidney transplant. They have a "donation" jar out for her because she can't afford the treatments, let along the transplant itself. And she works, pays taxes, has health insurance and is a citizen of the USA.


[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, what? And "favorite teller"?? WTF? Who the heck goes to a bank and deals with individual staff often enough to have a "favorite teller"?

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How much do you think WE paid? I'm sorry, I wish nothing but the best for those 2 babies, but come on. To stay just for the free medical treatment? Something is just NOT right with this picture. I went to the bank today, and my favorite teller is in need of a kidney transplant. They have a "donation" jar out for her because she can't afford the treatments, let along the transplant itself. And she works, pays taxes, has health insurance and is a citizen of the USA.


[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, what? And "favorite teller"?? WTF? Who the heck goes to a bank and deals with individual staff often enough to have a "favorite teller"?

[/ QUOTE ]
My teller today was fan-frickin'-tastic looking. She's definitely my favorite now. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

What part are you disagreeing with - the WE paid? I am an American taxpayer, so yes I paid.

I own a small business and go to the bank twice a day, so yes I have favorite teller.

Thanks for the well thought out reply though.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How much do you think WE paid? I'm sorry, I wish nothing but the best for those 2 babies, but come on. To stay just for the free medical treatment? Something is just NOT right with this picture. I went to the bank today, and my favorite teller is in need of a kidney transplant. They have a "donation" jar out for her because she can't afford the treatments, let along the transplant itself. And she works, pays taxes, has health insurance and is a citizen of the USA.


[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, what? And "favorite teller"?? WTF? Who the heck goes to a bank and deals with individual staff often enough to have a "favorite teller"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Those of us who still have a few dollars left after taxes. Im in the bank at least once a week on personal business and have favorites and non-favorites. What is so surprising about that?

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
How much do you think WE paid? I'm sorry, I wish nothing but the best for those 2 babies, but come on. To stay just for the free medical treatment? Something is just NOT right with this picture. I went to the bank today, and my favorite teller is in need of a kidney transplant. They have a "donation" jar out for her because she can't afford the treatments, let along the transplant itself. And she works, pays taxes, has health insurance and is a citizen of the USA.

I know from previous dem v rep. posts that most of you are liberals and disagree with what I have written, and I would really like you to explain to me where my thinking is flawed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, you haven't really said anything that can be refuted. Imagine I said the following:

"How much do you think my friend's car costs? I really like my friend's car. However, perhaps he shouldn't have bought it. I have another friend who really needs a car. My friend who needs a car is very nice. I have read this forum before. Some of you will disagree with me. Tell me where I'm flawed".

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
What part are you disagreeing with - the WE paid? I am an American taxpayer, so yes I paid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who disagreed? Read Dvaut's post, he is pointing out the issue.

[ QUOTE ]
I own a small business and go to the bank twice a day, so yes I have favorite teller.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm...ok. I hope you donated.

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the well thought out reply though.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]

Those of us who still have a few dollars left after taxes. Im in the bank at least once a week on personal business and have favorites and non-favorites. What is so surprising about that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Must be some right-wing fetish with banks. Everyone I know banks electronically and at ATMs.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Those of us who still have a few dollars left after taxes. Im in the bank at least once a week on personal business and have favorites and non-favorites. What is so surprising about that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Must be some right-wing fetish with banks. Everyone I know banks electronically and at ATMs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once an ATM or website can notarize something, move important papers to my safe deposit box, never make a mistake with substantial cash deposits, authorize donations for social causes in the name of the bank and smile and say thank you, I may never set foot inside one again.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

How do you deposit bags of coin and numerous small bills?

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

It sucks that your favorite bank teller has insufficient health care coverage but I don't see what this has to do with these conjoined twins being separated. Surely the two treatments aren't mutually exclusive? I don't think I really understand your questions (or why you want answers from "liberals out there" specifically.)

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

"How much do you think WE paid?"

Don't know. But what would you have done instead? Refuse to extend the parents' visas? For me, sometimes the cost is a secondary concern. I assume that, since the parents have been here since last August, they're spending some money and doing some things so they are paying some taxes.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
It sucks that your favorite bank teller has insufficient health care coverage but I don't see what this has to do with these conjoined twins being separated. Surely the two treatments aren't mutually exclusive? I don't think I really understand your questions (or why you want answers from "liberals out there" specifically.)

[/ QUOTE ]


My question is why should MY government pay for aliens who came for a weekend, discovered there were problems with the pregnancy and opted to stay so they could get free healthcare.

Why aren't the same considerations afforded to an American citizen who pays taxes?

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

If we had universal health care in this country, both the twins and the teller would have their medical needs met, no?

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It sucks that your favorite bank teller has insufficient health care coverage but I don't see what this has to do with these conjoined twins being separated. Surely the two treatments aren't mutually exclusive? I don't think I really understand your questions (or why you want answers from "liberals out there" specifically.)

[/ QUOTE ]


My question is why should MY government pay for aliens who came for a weekend, discovered there were problems with the pregnancy and opted to stay so they could get free healthcare.

Why aren't the same considerations afforded to an American citizen who pays taxes?

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that American citizens should have guaranteed access to health care. I guess I'm just not drawing the connection between the two cases you presented or, more generally, how government-assisted health care for non-citizens in certain unique circumstances contributes in any meaningful way to a lack of health care for citizens. I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
If we had universal health care in this country, both the twins and the teller would have their medical needs met, no?

[/ QUOTE ]


Not sure. When I was vacationing in GB a couple years ago and had to see a doctor, I had to pay even though they have Universal Health Care.

What you are saying is that I find out that I have a serious desease, all I have to do is visit another country and they will support me and pay all my bills?

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

OK, so why aren't American Citizens afforded the same courtesy?

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
What you are saying is that I find out that I have a serious desease, all I have to do is visit another country and they will support me and pay all my bills?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you are Mexican [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK, so why aren't American Citizens afforded the same courtesy?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a complicated question but I think it's safe to say that providing government-assisted health care to some non-citizens isn't one of the reasons.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

Not saying they are mutually exclusive. Just saying it sux that nonAmericans get treated better in America than Americans.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

when clinton came in he tried hard to get health care for all but was shot down on that till he gave up. maybe we werent ready yet for it. the problem with the twins thing is that is a sensational event and those always get done as it poplarizes the hospital and doctors. plus they get to do special operations which teaches things for the future so it isnt all just the money.
i gag on the money we spend on other countries that seems wasted, but what about all the money we make off them that never gets back to the source either.
there is no easy answer but i am not so sure that anyone that has life threatening things cant get medical care.
transplants are a specail case as its illegal in this country to pay the person or relatives who donates an organ yet the doctors and hospitals can reap millions from the practice. and this makes organs so hard to get.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]


My question is why should MY government pay for aliens who came for a weekend, discovered there were problems with the pregnancy and opted to stay so they could get free healthcare.

Why aren't the same considerations afforded to an American citizen who pays taxes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh, do you think that the government would not pay for any American who had conjoined twins and couldnt pay the bills?

Crazy unusal events get way more than enough compensation. 9/11 families get a million from the gov. Drunk driver victims families get nothing. Both involve the exact same amount of tradgedy for the family but one was very public and sensational.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

If by "the same courtesy," you're referring to the operation, I would imagine that conjoined twins get special treatment no matter who the parents are. But I'm not sure if I understand your question.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

Fish?

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK, so why aren't American Citizens afforded the same courtesy?

[/ QUOTE ]

They are in some countries. A girlfriend of mine spent a year in England and received free health care.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

the twins things is advertising.

the hospital performs this remarkable surgery which no rational human being would deny another human being in distress regardless of creed/background/etc.

Said hospital raises it's profile and attracts other investment in the longer run allowing it more mney to spend on future operations - plus all the spin off of better experienced surgeons more able to teach people how to do more stuff....

In the UK if I want to go see a GP it's free - if I need a prescribed drug to help with my condition I have to pay for that.

If I need to go to the Dentist I have to pay.

If I collapse in the street tomorrow with a heart attack people will come rushing to my aid and provide free health care.

One of my close friends was attacked in the street last month - the emergency services scooped him up - carried out several facial reconstructive operations - he is back at work now much better and despite the fact that he is "working class" and has no health insurance whatsoever he doesn't have to pay for the treatment at all - the UK does get some things right...

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
One of my close friends was attacked in the street last month - the emergency services scooped him up - carried out several facial reconstructive operations - he is back at work now much better and despite the fact that he is "working class" and has no health insurance whatsoever he doesn't have to pay for the treatment at all - the UK does get some things right...

[/ QUOTE ]

Tyranny! Don't you realise that this free treatment only encourages your friend (if that is his real name!) to go out and get his face smashed up again!? And that rich people are starving to death to fund his addiction to free facial reconstruction?

If only he'd lived in Somalia, he could have called up cheap health care services on their innovative telecommunications system, without resorting to mass genocide or moral equivalents thereof.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
when clinton came in he tried hard to get health care for all but was shot down on that till he gave up. maybe we werent ready yet for it. the problem with the twins thing is that is a sensational event and those always get done as it poplarizes the hospital and doctors. plus they get to do special operations which teaches things for the future so it isnt all just the money.
i gag on the money we spend on other countries that seems wasted, but what about all the money we make off them that never gets back to the source either.
there is no easy answer but i am not so sure that anyone that has life threatening things cant get medical care.
transplants are a specail case as its illegal in this country to pay the person or relatives who donates an organ yet the doctors and hospitals can reap millions from the practice. and this makes organs so hard to get.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong gender. When Clinton came in SHE tried hard...and made it all the way to Section 89 of the IRC which was the biggest killer of trees in the history of the world, and didnt save any human lives (though it sure was nice at bonus time in benefits consulting companies).

Unfortunately Shrillary apparently has learned nothing from that disaster.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
the twins things is advertising.

Said hospital raises it's profile and attracts other investment in the longer run allowing it more mney to spend on future operations - plus all the spin off of better experienced surgeons more able to teach people how to do more stuff....



[/ QUOTE ]


Good theory, but according the the article the Hospital DIDN'T pay for it. California did.

and I quote

"Childrens Hospital declined to reveal the operation's cost, which will be covered by a state health program."

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

I don't see how your thinking is flawed but I'm not a liberal. Why doesn't her health insurance pay for at least some of this? Is it because the risk of the surgery?

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how your thinking is flawed but I'm not a liberal. Why doesn't her health insurance pay for at least some of this? Is it because the risk of the surgery?

[/ QUOTE ]

Her health insurance does pay for part of it - after a $5,000 deductible, and then 80% after that. The cost of treatments before the surgery even at 20% are more than the average person can handle, let alone the costs of the surgery once it comes.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
How much do you think WE paid?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not much compared to the $9 Billion a month we're paying for the Iraq fiasco.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

In no way do I support the Iraq fiasco.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK, so why aren't American Citizens afforded the same courtesy?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a complicated question but I think it's safe to say that providing government-assisted health care to some non-citizens isn't one of the reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

For one thing, because the twins were born in the US, they are citizens.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK, so why aren't American Citizens afforded the same courtesy?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a complicated question but I think it's safe to say that providing government-assisted health care to some non-citizens isn't one of the reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

For one thing, because the twins were born in the US, they are citizens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which in and of itself is ridiculous.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK, so why aren't American Citizens afforded the same courtesy?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a complicated question but I think it's safe to say that providing government-assisted health care to some non-citizens isn't one of the reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

For one thing, because the twins were born in the US, they are citizens.

[/ QUOTE ]


Which is a major flaw in our system.

If I decided the cross the border to have a baby in Canada, will that child be entitled to life time health care?

I don't know - just asking.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how your thinking is flawed but I'm not a liberal. Why doesn't her health insurance pay for at least some of this? Is it because the risk of the surgery?

[/ QUOTE ]

Her health insurance does pay for part of it - after a $5,000 deductible, and then 80% after that. The cost of treatments before the surgery even at 20% are more than the average person can handle, let alone the costs of the surgery once it comes.

[/ QUOTE ]

it is more than an average person can afford, but this is an extremely expensive operation so the next question to ask is should anyone be entitled to health care at any cost just because a technique is possible to save or help them. where do you draw the line. shouild a drug addict get a million dollar operation for self inflicted disese, or a drunk for liver problems, or lung cancer for a smoker. who should pay for that, the person that takes care of themself or a tax on the products that cause these problems. maybe this is another thread

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

This case is all about "drama". You have this 80 person medical team devoted to separating conjoined twins which is not a significant problem in the world. (It's estimated that a few hundred pairs of conjoined twins are born globally each year. In the U.S., they occur 1 in every 200,000 live births.)

We're paying for it cuz these doctors, etc are after the limelight and glamour. Seriously, they engineered the whole deal. Not the parents. These doctors just wanted to show off. I can't blame the parents of the babies since most parents will do just about anything for the survival of their offspring, including extending visas and whatnot.

Now for your favorite teller...there's no drama there. She's in the same boat as the 43 million Americans either un- or under-insured. At the same time though, no one extending a visa is going to get a kidney transplant at taxpayer expense since kidney transplants are so commonplace.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

[ QUOTE ]

it is more than an average person can afford, but this is an extremely expensive operation so the next question to ask is should anyone be entitled to health care at any cost just because a technique is possible to save or help them. where do you draw the line. shouild a drug addict get a million dollar operation for self inflicted disese, or a drunk for liver problems, or lung cancer for a smoker. who should pay for that, the person that takes care of themself or a tax on the products that cause these problems. maybe this is another thread

[/ QUOTE ]

I am so for "personal responsibility". If you don't want to wear a motorcyle helmet, fine. But, if you crack your head because you don't have one on don't expect the government to pay for your care.

If you want to have a baby a year, fine, but don't expect the government to pay for them.

If you have the means to take care of these problems do whatever the hell you want.

People who are stupid enough to smoke (which, BTW I do) should not expect the government to pay for our health problems.

Alcoholics - if their insurance decides to pay for it they should get their liver treated with the caveat that the insurance company has the right to monitor/demand that the drinking has to stop or all future treatments will end immediately and they will have to reimburse the insurance company for past treatments.

Re: This is a serious question for the liberals out there
 

Excellent hmmmmmmm,

You forgot to account for the fatter red states and obesity.

I don't really like my taxes going to overcome obesity; yet, I find it ok if my taxes prevent it to begin with.