why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

I almost never start big strategy threads, but I thought I’d make one on this since lately there seem to be a bunch of posts that start out with a preflop limp. OP’s explanation is usually something to the effect of "sometimes I raise, but this time I decided to limp." So I think for the benefit of newer posters/regulars who are looking to move up, there needs to be some discussion on why, in almost all scenarios, raising or folding is generally better than limping.

The limped pot conundrum: You limp a hand like a pocket pair or suited connector. It's limped to the flop. You're immediately facing two significant problems:

1- How do I win a big pot?

You're almost never going to win a sizable pot unless your opponent hits the flop very hard, but you hit it harder. When you raise preflop, you're introducing another layer to the game: c-betting with air, double barrel-ing, the overvalueing of hands by your opponent, bluffing from your opponent, etc. That's NOT happening in a limped pot, or rarely. A raised pot is also better suited for stacking someone; the bet sizes are able to more easily facilitate an all-in.

2- I can lose a big pot.

You limp a hand like Q3d and flop a flush. The BB had K4d and would have folded to a preflop raise. Stacked.

The idea of raising vs limping directly correlates to the idea of switching gears, or changing tempo during your session. The more often you're raising preflop, the more likely it is that your opponent will take a stand against your frequent preflop raises in the wrong spot or spew chips off by making a heroic calldown. As you notice people making plays at you, or calling you lightly, react by either a. firing more barrels at them or b. folding the suited cards from EP preflop. The great thing about a raised pot is that you don’t need to get to showdown to win. And if you do hit, your hand strength is disguised. People will often be calling your frequent raises thinking that they have implied odds to crack you if they hit; of course, that’s not true, because you can easily pitch your hand postflop – the money is only going in with the best of it, or with a great read that they’ll have to fold a better hand. Limping bleeds money. Why limp 44 UTG and then call a raise from BTN, only to c/f a J high flop that you could easily have won by raising preflop and then c-betting?

A hand occurred a few days ago where I had been liberally raising, floating and 3-betting an otherwise solid LAG 2+2 regular. I picked up QQ on the BTN, he raised, and I 3-bet. He called, and c/red a T high flop all-in with 88. Stack to me. That would not have occurred had I been playing weak/tight/passive and limping. He would have checked and folded the flop.

By raising preflop, you’re creating +EV situations where none existed before. Couple this with solid postflop play and you will already be improving. Limping is just asking for good players to pick on you. The key is precise control of your play postflop. Experiment from the CO/BTN first, and then start adding in the other positions. It's alright to fold 22 UTG if you're not comfortable raising it.

The only time I would advocate limping is when there’s some kind of giant fish at the table who’ll pay off like a slot machine when you hit. Otherwise, RAISE.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

honestly this can be summed up with: people go broke with more hands in raised pots

good post nonetheless, its nice to see solid reasoning behind these concepts.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

its all about balance. raising marginal hands also produce a lot of situations where you lose a big pot that would not have happened had you limped especially since many on this board do not "let go of a hand easily" postflop. We can bring up your 77 hand against TWP for example had you not hit the 7 on the river or if TWP decided to bet/3bet the turn.

or if we use your example with QQ, had villain had AA/KK/Set, you would have been stacked whereas if you had a tighter image, perhaps it wouldn't have happened.

The important thing is balance. increased aggression with a wider array of hands widen our own range as well as the range of our opponent if they are able to adjust. at the end of the day, you still have to win more than you lose. you might win 10 pots out of 15 whereas a tighter player wins 6 small pots out of 8.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
its all about balance. raising marginal hands also produce a lot of situations where you lose a big pot that would not have happened had you limped especially since many on this board do not "let go of a hand easily" postflop. We can bring up your 77 hand against TWP for example had you not hit the 7 on the river or if TWP decided to bet/3bet the turn.

or if we use your example with QQ, had villain had AA/KK/Set, you would have been stacked whereas if you had a tighter image, perhaps it wouldn't have happened.

The important thing is balance. increased aggression with a wider array of hands widen our own range as well as the range of our opponent if they are able to adjust. at the end of the day, you still have to win more than you lose. you might win 10 pots out of 15 whereas a tighter player wins 6 small pots out of 8.

[/ QUOTE ]

very valid points, and i didn't mean to steer this into a TAG vs LAG discussion - only to shed light on why raising, whether youre tight or loose, is much more preferrable to limping.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

"You limp a hand like Q3d and flop a flush. The BB had K4d and would have folded to a preflop raise. Stacked"

You limp a hand liks A4s, flop a flush and stack the BB who had K5s. He wouldve folded K5s to a raise. It goes both ways.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

I think raising a wide range is a way to magnify our own advantage in hand reading ability over villain's (whether perceived or real).

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
"You limp a hand like Q3d and flop a flush. The BB had K4d and would have folded to a preflop raise. Stacked"

You limp a hand liks A4s, flop a flush and stack the BB who had K5s. He wouldve folded K5s to a raise. It goes both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

You limp a hand like A4s, flop A24, and stack off to 35o. It works that way, too.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"You limp a hand like Q3d and flop a flush. The BB had K4d and would have folded to a preflop raise. Stacked"

You limp a hand liks A4s, flop a flush and stack the BB who had K5s. He wouldve folded K5s to a raise. It goes both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

You limp a hand like A4s, flop A24, and stack off to 35o. It works that way, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we can come up with examples ad nauseum. I don't think 1 way is better than the other.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"You limp a hand like Q3d and flop a flush. The BB had K4d and would have folded to a preflop raise. Stacked"

You limp a hand liks A4s, flop a flush and stack the BB who had K5s. He wouldve folded K5s to a raise. It goes both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

You limp a hand like A4s, flop A24, and stack off to 35o. It works that way, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realize that, Im just saying your flopped flush example wasnt a very good one.

You could limp 44 and stack 96 on a 964 flop where he wouldve fold to a raise.. We could do this all day.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

raising>limping

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

There are plently of successful players that limp a lot. Poker is situational, and thats the bottom line. Adjust to the table and limp when it makes sense, don't when it doesn't.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
raising>limping

[/ QUOTE ]

raising > limping when the amount of money you win from people folding or paying you off on your big hands- the extra amount you now put in to raise/continue your bluff is > than the amount of money you would have won normally.

thats all it is.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think raising a wide range is a way to magnify our own advantage in hand reading ability over villain's (whether perceived or real).

[/ QUOTE ]

i really like this, this is probably the best way to look at it

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are plently of successful players that limp a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe, but they are not beating HSNL, and certainly not winning as much as they could at MSNL long-term, unless they're playing a very skilled, unorthodox postflop style.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are plently of successful players that limp a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe, but they are not beating HSNL, and certainly not winning as much as they could at MSNL long-term, unless they're playing a very skilled, unorthodox postflop style.

[/ QUOTE ]

part of this might be that at HSNL, you just won't see say 3 guys limp in from EP that often, and thus the situations in which limping is preferred over raising is just not there due to the players involved.

you take a HSNL player that raises very often and adjusts well and ask him to play NL200 and he might find that its more profitable to raise less often preflop.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think raising a wide range is a way to magnify our own advantage in hand reading ability over villain's (whether perceived or real).

[/ QUOTE ]

i really like this, this is probably the best way to look at it

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that part I can definatley agree with.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

agreed, very nice post.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are plently of successful players that limp a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe, but they are not beating HSNL...

[/ QUOTE ]
What is HSNL? Is 10/20 HSNL? At 10/20 there are many players who limp a lot and win. For example, FSUPlayer (Old Screen Name Howard_Roark) was 31/14 for 5-6 handed in my old database and he is a 3 ptbb/100 winner over his last 200,000 hands.

I rarely open limp, but I definitely overlimp fairly often.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
part of this might be that at HSNL, you just won't see say 3 guys limp in from EP that often

[/ QUOTE ]
lol you'd be surprised.

Good post jkrantz. I remember in someone's stats post a few days ago several people advocated a 1:1 VPIP:PFR ratio. I didn't say anything, but thought to myself that they were crazy. I think playing something like 25/12 is far too passive preflop. Everyone has brought up good reasons for raising preflop, some of the most important I think are
<ul type="square">[*]people go broke with more hands in raised pots [*]raising a wide range is a way to magnify our own advantage in hand reading ability over villain's [*]When you raise preflop, you're introducing another layer to the game: c-betting with air, double barrel-ing, the overvalueing of hands by your opponent, bluffing from your opponent, etc.[*]you gain initiative and set up +EV postflop situations due to fold equity, which makes up for the relative weakness of the hand [/list]and best of all
<ul type="square">[*]raising&gt;limping[/list]

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

The absurd setup situations being presented obviously don't do much justice as far as illustrating the arguements between raising and limping. Those situations happen so infrequently that even if there is some value gained from limping a hand in a situation where you may get a weaker hand to come along and flop a 2nd best hand like that, raising will generally still make you more money in the long run because the majority of situations wont be setups like that, and you will be gaining $ from the initiative and subsequent fold equity / +EV situations created by raising, whereas by limping you are passing up on that. That being said, table dynamics could certainly sway a raise to a limp, especially (but certainly not exclusively) due to stack sizes present.

JKrantz is correct in bringing up the fact that by raising, you knock out certain hands out of their ranges, though. It is one benefit of raising and certainly needs to be mentioned. It is especially true with hands such as suited connectors. You really cant be too confident in the strength of your hand when you get a lot of action when the flush completes in a multiway limped pot and you are holding two rags of that suit. When you raise and eliminate a wide range of suited hands above yours, and are playing against fewer people with far thinner / more defined ranges, your situations become much clearer.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are plently of successful players that limp a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe, but they are not beating HSNL...

[/ QUOTE ]
What is HSNL? Is 10/20 HSNL? At 10/20 there are many players who limp a lot and win. For example, FSUPlayer (Old Screen Name Howard_Roark) was 31/14 for 5-6 handed in my old database and he is a 3 ptbb/100 winner over his last 200,000 hands.

I rarely open limp, but I definitely overlimp fairly often.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are spots where it makes sense to overlimp (closing the action, for one, after numerous limpers). But open limp? Like you said, rarely.

Re: beating HSNL - table selection, baby. If you're at a table with the 4 dragons you are not going to beat them by limping, unless it's done in a veryyy tricky fashion. And just because FSU is 31/14 does not necessarily mean he's limping a lot, right?

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
And just because FSU is 31/14 does not necessarily mean he's limping a lot, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I don't want to dissect his game piece by piece, but he does limp a lot. Maybe I'll take a look at my database and find someone with a similar style who's not a known 2+2er and go over their play.

There are many different winning pre flop styles at 10/20. There are many regulars who play passively pre flop and do well(at least I assume they do since they'd probably be broke otherwise). The main thing to avoid is not so much limping/open limping, it's getting into reverse implied odds situations.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are many different winning pre flop styles at 10/20.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed, but which one wins the most?

raising = you're a pain in the ass to play against, your opponents's hands are easier to read

limping = good players pick on you, your opponents have an easier time reading your hand

in my eyes, anyway. anyone a big winner who likes to limp preflop care to talk about why they like to limp vs raise?

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
agreed, but which one wins the most?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably the more aggressive players. I wasn't arguing that the chronic limpers are the biggest winners, just that their style can be a winning one(and probably a pretty big winning one by most people's standards).

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
You limp a hand like Q3d and flop a flush. The BB had 2d4d-JdTd and would have folded to a preflop raise. Stacked.

[/ QUOTE ]

a lot of your points don't really support your claim, or they can go either way.

you limp 44, c/f a j high flop; ok great you lost a bb. you raise 44, cbet a jack high flop and get called, you lose 10bb, and you might even fold the best hand.

you don't win big pots, but you aren't limping big hands - you're limping crappy hands, and either trying to semibluff (and the bluffs are smaller = less money when they dont work) or trying to extract a small amount of value from marginal hands.

i agree with your premise, but i don't agree with your logic. I think it's better to be aggressive preflop for the simple reason that it's much easier to hand read when you are betting, rather than calling.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
The absurd setup situations being presented obviously don't do much justice as far as illustrating the arguements between raising and limping. Those situations happen so infrequently that even if there is some value gained from limping a hand in a situation where you may get a weaker hand to come along and flop a 2nd best hand like that, raising will generally still make you more money in the long run because the majority of situations wont be setups like that, and you will be gaining $ from the initiative and subsequent fold equity / +EV situations created by raising, whereas by limping you are passing up on that. That being said, table dynamics could certainly sway a raise to a limp, especially (but certainly not exclusively) due to stack sizes present.

JKrantz is correct in bringing up the fact that by raising, you knock out certain hands out of their ranges, though. It is one benefit of raising and certainly needs to be mentioned. It is especially true with hands such as suited connectors. You really cant be too confident in the strength of your hand when you get a lot of action when the flush completes in a multiway limped pot and you are holding two rags of that suit. When you raise and eliminate a wide range of suited hands above yours, and are playing against fewer people with far thinner / more defined ranges, your situations become much clearer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you and I agree with most of his other points. I was just saying that his flush over flush example was a poor argument for raising being better than limping.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]

raising = you're a pain in the ass to play against


[/ QUOTE ]
this is key imo. always try to be a pain in the ass.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

Open limping = great for metagame when you wanna look like a donk

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
I remember in someone's stats post a few days ago several people advocated a 1:1 VPIP:PFR ratio. I didn't say anything, but thought to myself that they were crazy. I think playing something like 25/12 is far too passive preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

either there's a typo somewhere or you misunderstood what they were trying to say.

1:1 = 15/15
2:1 = 24/12

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
you limp 44, c/f a j high flop; ok great you lost a bb. you raise 44, cbet a jack high flop and get called, you lose 10bb, and you might even fold the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

postflop play is a completely different story, and of course i'm not advocating just c-betting that J high flop and giving the hand away every time I'm called. variance could be a little higher, for sure, but you're creating +EV spots that you wouldn't otherwise get.

and i agree with you and iceman: i picked some bad examples. it's difficult to find specific examples since it is so either/or. but i think we can all agree that raising puts the onus on your opponents to take a stand, and if you're better than them postflop you can raise a hand like 34d, flop an A25 board, and cause them to stack off with an ace where they otherwise might not have stacked off.

my original example sucked, but i'll use q3d again here. if you had raised it and flopped a flush, you would absolutely stack a lower flush. but if you had limped, a good player probably would not stack off with a lower one. couple that with the times you both miss and you steal the pot on the flop, and there's no argument.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

Mahatma open limps pretty often from 2 and 3 otb.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

I guess im the only winning player at 3/6 NL that likes to open limp a lot?

I personally find it adds a new weapon in your game allowing you to reraise someone who raised you, or call and disguise your holdings. Then again I play full ring, and in 6-max I do a lot less open limping. But still I do some open-limping even in 6-max.

As for overlimping, I do that all the time with suited connectors in stuff, and just go for the monster. No reason to bloat the pot pre-flop with a marginal hand or with a pocket pair in weak position.

I dont feel like arguining why I like it more in great detail right now.. maybe later..

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
anyone a big winner who likes to limp preflop care to talk about why they like to limp vs raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that limping is a strategy to stick to. But, its a good way to switch gears. Its a good way to punish players that don't raise enough preflop and make big mistakes postflop. Certain situations make limping profitable. Like someone said earlier, if you are sitting with 4 dragons limping is probably suicide.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are plently of successful players that limp a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe, but they are not beating HSNL, and certainly not winning as much as they could at MSNL long-term, unless they're playing a very skilled, unorthodox postflop style.

[/ QUOTE ]

part of this might be that at HSNL, you just won't see say 3 guys limp in from EP that often, and thus the situations in which limping is preferred over raising is just not there due to the players involved.

you take a HSNL player that raises very often and adjusts well and ask him to play NL200 and he might find that its more profitable to raise less often preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point,amoeba.

I found that raising first in with A4,J9,810,910 just ends up losing money in the long run at NL 200.

I miss the flop, continuation bet after checked, get called and there goes $25.

I make all my money by raising pairs, continuation betting the flop when I hit a set and stacking top pair.

I think raising too much of the suited connectors can work at HSNL but is spewage at NL 200.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I remember in someone's stats post a few days ago several people advocated a 1:1 VPIP:PFR ratio. I didn't say anything, but thought to myself that they were crazy. I think playing something like 25/12 is far too passive preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

1:1 is 24/12, since every hand you raise is included in vpip, right?

either there's a typo somewhere or you misunderstood what they were trying to say.

1:1 = 15/15
2:1 = 24/12

[/ QUOTE ]

i thought 1:1 was 24/12 since vpip includes pfr.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
A hand occurred a few days ago where I had been liberally raising, floating and 3-betting an otherwise solid LAG 2+2 regular. I picked up QQ on the BTN, he raised, and I 3-bet. He called, and c/red a T high flop all-in with 88. Stack to me. That would not have occurred had I been playing weak/tight/passive and limping. He would have checked and folded the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

you could argue villain would not have lost his stack if he was playing limp / call / check / fold poker.

[ QUOTE ]
By raising preflop, you’re creating +EV situations where none existed before. Couple this with solid postflop play and you will already be improving. Limping is just asking for good players to pick on you. The key is precise control of your play postflop. Experiment from the CO/BTN first, and then start adding in the other positions. It's alright to fold 22 UTG if you're not comfortable raising it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're right (im in the raise/fold camp) but I dont think you're universially right. There are many situations (more so live) where you want to play every hand, and raising pf wont let you do that. A good generalization is to raise pf, and if you dont want to raise, fold. But there are definately exceptions.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

sorry about the bump, too, someone linked this from a hsnl thread and i thought this was pretty good...

fwiw HU I limp alllllllllllllllot.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

just reread this, i can add some things

-live play you can limp a lot just to get in the pot with all those donkeys

-heads up to change it up against very aggro players or passive calling stations who you cant fold out by raising and bet/betting

-some situations in 6max where if you raise, you are constantly 3-bet by someone very good with a wide range. mixing in limps and limp reraises is an effective counter strategy and probably not as swingy as getting involved in the 3-bet/4-bet wars that seem to have taken hold of the games lately

comes down to aggression, aggression, agression. put opponents at difficult decisions constantly. which is something that a lot of people don't do often enough

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

I agree with all of this.

Re: why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
-some situations in 6max where if you raise, you are constantly 3-bet by someone very good with a wide range. mixing in limps and limp reraises is an effective counter strategy and probably not as swingy as getting involved in the 3-bet/4-bet wars that seem to have taken hold of the games lately

[/ QUOTE ]

im tring not to be nitpicky ( [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ) and in general what you're saying is good and all.

but the best strategy is if someone very good is making your life hell, really, is to get up and not play at that table. or change positions. implementing something on the go - like the limp / raise limp / call limp / fold rather then raise and face his 3bet is highly exploitable, running along the thinking that the hero is probably very inexperienced with applying an "effective" strategy doing that, so most of it will be on the go. whereas villain will have dealt with limpers that call fold and raise before, so he's not really faced with anything new.

i get 3bet alot, and mainly i just 4bet more (then go busto) . really tho just loosen up even more or tighten up works for me - the old expression is "if you bang your head into a wall 10 times in a row, maybe its time to walk around it instead" rather then stick to raising pf alot, try something different, like fold a little more.