Kings vs paired door card
 

This is a hand I played last night.. All the players are very loose. I'll post my comments later.

7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (2.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (3.85 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (7.85 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

River - (11.85 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___folds

Total pot: (14.85 BB)

Re: Kings vs paired door card
 

Meh,
You probably won't be making a big mistake if you fold or call on 5th. The pot is bigish, and you're getting multiway action. However, because you're getting multiway action your hopes for Ks up aren't spectacular (I'm guessing you put seat 2 on a wider range than just trip 3s)


I'm not a real big fan of the call because you don't see any other 3s. I don't think the call is a serious mistake, but I don't think its best.

Once you get a 2nd pair you CANNOT fold 6th because now you have 7 outs to beat trips (KJJJJTT)

On 7th the pot is big, you may win, call.

Re: Kings vs paired door card
 

5th is whatever to me. I call here too since two pair is likely here and you have a gutshot as well as other drawing opportunities. I consider sixth street to be an automatic raise - try to get heads-up with the monkey and give yourself a better chance of winning the hand. Your board will likely protect you from being reraised. Just my take.

Jeff

Re: Kings vs paired door card
 

If you want to play the hand, I think you need to try to narrow the field somewhere.

I think it's probably spewing, but has anyone considered a raise on 5th. It could well get the pot heads-up, and may persuade seat 2 to check 6th, if he reads you for a made straight or if he doesn't have the trips

Re: Kings vs paired door card
 

[ QUOTE ]
but has anyone considered a raise on 5th

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes me cringe.

Re: Kings vs paired door card
 

I'm not saying that I would raise, but I think you can argue that it's a reasonable move. If you call 5th, you'll probably call 6th, and the river with any improvement (most likely to kings up). If you raise 5th, which is likely to eliminate most of the field, you may well get to check behind on sixth (unless you catch a jack or king), so going to showdown would be no more expensive than in the call/call/call line.

I just don't like the passive line, given that you are more likely to make kings up than trip kings or the straight, and kings up is very often a second-best hand in this sort of pot, whether seat 2 has trips or not.

Re: Kings vs paired door card
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise 5th, which is likely to eliminate most of the field

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, Frappe did say they were all very loose. So anybody with a decent draw is sticking around regardless.

Re: Kings vs paired door card
 

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
but has anyone considered a raise on 5th

This makes me cringe.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I've got to develop some lower gears, but I like a raise on 6th. I would have also raised fifth [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
if the raise would eliminate stragglers (frappes read was that the table was very loose, so I guess it's debatable). If we're reraised, then we know where we stand.

Two pair for villain with something like buried Jacks is very likely (although the river bet does indicate some real strength).

- Mac

Re: Kings vs paired door card
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would have also raised fifth

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you raise 5th when you don't even have 2 pair?

You don't even have a hand to protect.

My comments
 

First off, I think 3rd and 4th are pretty standard.

5th Street is a tough decision. I hate playing against a paired door card, but I have a totally live gutshot straight, and a 3 flush to go along with the pair of kings. I considered raising at this point, but I figured my opponents behind me don't have anything really menacing. I really don't mind pairs smaller than kings coming in behind me, or even a gutshot isn't too bad. Hands like a 4 straight or a 4 flush aren't going anywhere if I raise anyhow. Since I'm most likely behind (although I have no clue how far behind), I decided to just call and let the "loose" players behind me give me better odds if seat 2 does have trips.

6th street I make Kings up. This is where I strongly considered raising, but at this point there were 2 factors that told me to just call here. First of all seat 2 is still betting even though my board is VERY scary. This signals to me that he has real strength. Next I looked at the players behind me, both have weak looking boards. Seat 6 likely has no draw whatsoever and is probably drawing to trips only. Seat 1 does have a 3 straight showing but his straight cards are quite dead. Notice I have two 10s, and a 9. Also on the lower end there has been two 5s and two 4s exposed. So I don't know what he has, but I know he's probably drawing pretty slim too. So on 6th I decided to just call again.

The river is tough because the 4s are still betting but I figured I just had to pay off here.

Re: Kings vs paired door card
 

How can you fold on fifth street? You could get J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and make a straight flush. All right, let’s get back to reality, now.

You didn’t say the players were loose, you said they were very loose; so I suppose trip threes are a possibility. If that’s what the player has, you’re in trouble. However, folding your hand because of this possibility would be a weak play.

Aces up or jacks up seem like a more probable holding. Folding because of the possibility of aces up would also be weak. After all, you’ve seen another ace, and your opponent’s betting pattern doesn’t indicate that he or she has aces in the hole.

You have to think you’re in trouble when you see the bet on the river. However, I’m very confident that, considering the size of the pot, kings up is a good enough hand to warrant a call.

Re: Kings vs paired door card
 

Jon,

I hate calling here. Assuming the bettor doesn't have trips, you are GREATLY increasing your chances of winning the pot if you raise here. If he does have trips, you're likely going to get 3-bet, so you at least know where the heck you're at (I don't think most players are tricky enough to 3-bet here without trips, and I think that even 2pr isn't likely to 3-bet here). By calling, you're letting the whole field stay in cheaply with their flukely draws. I also wonder what your plan is for the rest of the hand? Call all the way down unimproved? Fold 7th without 2pr? That can't be right.

I thought raising was the best, followed closely by a fold. I think calling is terrible here---and I'm pretty damned weak!

Michael

Re: Kings vs paired door card
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jon,

I hate calling here. Assuming the bettor doesn't have trips, you are GREATLY increasing your chances of winning the pot if you raise here. If he does have trips, you're likely going to get 3-bet, so you at least know where the heck you're at (I don't think most players are tricky enough to 3-bet here without trips, and I think that even 2pr isn't likely to 3-bet here). By calling, you're letting the whole field stay in cheaply with their flukely draws. I also wonder what your plan is for the rest of the hand? Call all the way down unimproved? Fold 7th without 2pr? That can't be right.

I thought raising was the best, followed closely by a fold. I think calling is terrible here---and I'm pretty damned weak!

Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Which street is "here"

2. (Every thing regarding 5th street)
Do you realize that raising might not even clear the field?
Do you realize that you are very likely behind here?
Do you realize that you'll make your straight about 1 in 7 times?
Do you realize that you're hand is vunerable to a redraw?
Do you realize that no other 3 is showing?
Do you realize Ks up isn't nearly "a lock" in 5 way action?
Do you realize a solid draw facing 2-bets cold can't make a big mistake by calling or folding?
Do you realize raising forces a slim draw to correctly fold?


Do you have a plan for when you "know" seat 2 has trips?


I HATE raising 5th. There are times when a good hand doesn't get help, and a weak hand does. When this happens, espically in multiway action, just fold because Ks up won't be very strong in a showdown. There is no point chasing for a medium strength showdown hand when there are 4 other opponents. In this example, there is only 1 scary board, and our hero has more hope than just Ks up, so itsn't as bad as it could be, but hacking your way through the field with a bowie knife just to get shot in the head at showdown doesn't make any sense.

Re: Kings vs paired door card
 

So what do you want to do? You said early it's close between folding and calling. I think it's close between folding and raising, with calling not even being a contender. I can't think of a single good reason to just call here.

Michael

Re: Kings vs paired door card
 

[ QUOTE ]
So what do you want to do? You said early it's close between folding and calling. I think it's close between folding and raising, with calling not even being a contender. I can't think of a single good reason to just call here.

Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

I really have no strong preference btw folding and calling. I think folding is slightly better. But I'd probably call in the heat of the moment because I'm a sucker for action.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I understand your desire to raise. I used to play alot of 3-6 where multiway pots are a bit more common than 5-10. And I used to raise frequently, it very rarely worked, and it was very expensive.

Re: Kings vs paired door card
 

Frappe, the only thing I may do differently is go for a check raise on 4th.