rivered a boat 3 way
 

Last hand - SB is Newbie 1 - a good aggresive player (a lizard - big winner in the game). I'm sure I am ahead of the BB on the river - he is also a good aggressive player. The game has not been playing all that fast. River play?

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $10/$20
4 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $2671.50
Button: $1940
SB: $1898
BB: $2770.01

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is UTG with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $69</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $230</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($690, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($690, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($690, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $275</font>, BB calls,

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

I would probably make it 800 and fold to a raise against newble here.

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

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I would probably make it 800 and fold to a raise against newble here.

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i like. holla

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

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I would probably make it 800 and fold to a raise against newble here.

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I don't understand. Why would you want to raise if your only going to fold to a reraise?

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

Because a flush pays off a raise and 88/JJ pushes over the top. An all-in bluff over top would be very rare because the BB calling means your raise is less likely to be a bluff. It's also possible that SB holds AA/KK/QQ, although that would be a strange way to play it and he may not pay off a raise with an overpair.

That said, Hero has a full house facing a less-than-1/2-pot bet and a call with no reason to fear being behind. Raise it up and see if anyone gets weird. B Buddy's image means that he'll get some very sketchy calls.

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

Wow, I don't see how I'm not going broke here everytime even if I do get reraised all in. Is this just metagame where its an easy fold or something? Don't the villains ever play back all in to prevent squeeze plays? Maybe this is just a big leak in my game or something but it's goddamn tough to fold to a reraise here.

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

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Because a flush pays off a raise and 88/JJ pushes over the top.

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I don't see how either opponent can have JJ/88/22. Sure, good players sometimes play deceptively, but checking down to the river and then either betting 40% of the pot or calling a 40% pot bet is an impossible way to play a monster. That said, I think you never get reraised all in here anyway.

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

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Because a flush pays off a raise and 88/JJ pushes over the top.

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I don't see how either opponent can have JJ/88/22. Sure, good players sometimes play deceptively, but checking down to the river and then either betting 40% of the pot or calling a 40% pot bet is an impossible way to play a monster. That said, I think you never get reraised all in here anyway.

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I don't see how OP can have those hands either, which is why if villain is as good as everyone thinks he is, buddy should make it 800 and CALL a push

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

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An all-in bluff over top would be very rare because the BB calling means your raise is less likely to be a bluff.

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not so- the BB's call indicates a hand with some marginal level of showdown value. if you were going to run a bluff, neither player should be worried about the BB

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

Although that may be true, river squeezes are incredibly rare. I don't think I've ever seen one. As for JJ/88, I could see Newbie playing them like this simply because Buddy is the villain. I have played a decent amount against Buddy, and he preys on weakness, so some amount of sandbagging is necessary to balance things out.

I just don't see SB running a bluff over the top after a raise from Hero's spot, and pushing AA/KK/QQ would be suicide. The only hand that SB could do this weak lead and then push, while still losing to 55, would be the nut flush hoping for a call from a weaker flush, and that's really poking at a thin line.

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

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Although that may be true, river squeezes are incredibly rare. I don't think I've ever seen one. As for JJ/88, I could see Newbie playing them like this simply because Buddy is the villain. I have played a decent amount against Buddy, and he preys on weakness, so some amount of sandbagging is necessary to balance things out.

I just don't see SB running a bluff over the top after a raise from Hero's spot, and pushing AA/KK/QQ would be suicide. The only hand that SB could do this weak lead and then push, while still losing to 55, would be the nut flush hoping for a call from a weaker flush, and that's really poking at a thin line.

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good points - haven't ever played with the villain but you're right about OP.

just something to consider when raising the river - does Villain interpret OP's raise as a steal, since BB is obviously not very strong? Is he capable of a resteal push? I don't know how heavily you could weight that; depends on the flow of the game and how savvy newbie is, but it's worth keeping in mind if you raise and face a 3-bet

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

How can you possibly fold this if you make it 800 and SB pushes given SB's stack size?!?!

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

BBud,

On the river as played, I would raise to around 800 as Foxwoods said but whether I would fold is debatable since the only hands you fear are JJ/88 and you have to think he both raised in the blinds with 88 and then also didn't bet that flop which I think he would have with it. So then the only real hand to fear is JJ. But I think he also pushes over on that board with the nut flush and a bluff by AKo as well sometimes. So I *probably* wouldn't fold.

But my question for you is why you checked the flop? I would have bet it to both see if I could get rid of overcards and also to see if one them liked that flop, and because getting a free card with 2 outs to an underfull really isn't a big consideration to me. It's easy enough to fold if checkraised on the flop and be done with it.

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

I think raising it up, then folding to push on this river probably is standard.

Its a bit tougher for the buddy however, if sb folds and bb pushes.

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

I'll ask it again - how can you fold if SB pushes?

SB has 1900 - and has about 800 left after calling hero's hypothetical raise to 800ish

If he pushes on top of that, it's 800 more into a pot now with 690+275+275+800(hero's raise)+525(SB calls raise)+800(sb pushes rest) = 3365

With those odds, how do you fold this?

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

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With those odds, how do you fold this?

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You don't. And because of that, I also like a bigger raise than to 800 here. If he has JJ or 88, your stack is going in anyway, but if he did river the nut flush, I think you might be able to get more out of him than 525.

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

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BBud,

But my question for you is why you checked the flop? I would have bet it to both see if I could get rid of overcards and also to see if one them liked that flop, and because getting a free card with 2 outs to an underfull really isn't a big consideration to me. It's easy enough to fold if checkraised on the flop and be done with it.

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Hi BluffThis,
My thinking at the time was: I don't often see the BB calling a raise and a reraise cold so I assumed he was likely to have a big hand preflop. Also, the BB often checks good hands to me so his check does not signal to me that he is weak. I would not be surprised to see the BB play slow in a 4 bet pot with a hand as strong as QQ and he might even do this with KK. Also, I had not been playing too well and was running bad during my session so far, so I expected that a flop bet might not get much respect at the time. With that said, I like your idea and logic for betting this flop a lot of the time.

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

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Because a flush pays off a raise and 88/JJ pushes over the top.

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I don't see how either opponent can have JJ/88/22. Sure, good players sometimes play deceptively, but checking down to the river and then either betting 40% of the pot or calling a 40% pot bet is an impossible way to play a monster. That said, I think you never get reraised all in here anyway.

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I don't see how OP can have those hands either, which is why if villain is as good as everyone thinks he is, buddy should make it 800 and CALL a push

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Bingo.

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

Buddy, with YOUR image (I wouldn't recommend this to too many players), I would go ahead and make a healthy raise - may be to 800 or so. I think a good thinking player will look you up with some marginal holdings thinking that this is a good spot to bluff and that you in particular are very good at seizing opportunities.

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

Bet 999

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

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I would probably make it 800 and fold to a raise against newble here.

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How can you possibly fold to a push... with the flush card coming out too!??!?!?!

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

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I would probably make it 800 and fold to a raise against newble here.

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How can you possibly fold to a push... with the flush card coming out too!??!?!?!

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Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

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I would probably make it 800 and fold to a raise against newble here.

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How can you possibly fold to a push... with the flush card coming out too!??!?!?!

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OK the two of you might be right here because stacks are not quite deep enough, but you both don't get something very important:

When Kxh or worse 3 bets all in here, it's as a bluff.

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

Raise to 555

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

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When Kxh or worse 3 bets all in here, it's as a bluff.

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Of course, but SB re-raised preflop; the nut flush is infinitely more likely than the king-high. I agree JJ and 88 are easily the most probable (though oddly played) hands if facing a push, but the nut flush and a big over the top bluff that reads you as making a move (after all, 55 is about the ONLY hand you would value raise here) are definitely possibilities also.

Maybe if the stacks were 50% deeper, this would be tougher or more interesting river. As it is, pot odds absolutely dictate a call to his push.

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

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Because a flush pays off a raise and 88/JJ pushes over the top.

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I don't see how either opponent can have JJ/88/22. Sure, good players sometimes play deceptively, but checking down to the river and then either betting 40% of the pot or calling a 40% pot bet is an impossible way to play a monster. That said, I think you never get reraised all in here anyway.

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I don't see how OP can have those hands either, which is why if villain is as good as everyone thinks he is, buddy should make it 800 and CALL a push

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Bingo.

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you can see by this logic then that OP is losing immense value by not just pushing himself....

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

Yeah I know, 4.x:1 is hard to pass up etc. I'm talking to the people that are "OMG you have a boat when a flush hit call."

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

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Yeah I know, 4.x:1 is hard to pass up etc. I'm talking to the people that are "OMG you have a boat when a flush hit call."

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Well I was taking that into account in what I said. The reason I think it should be an easy call is because of the pot odds mostly; doesn't really have much to do with the suits of the board. I shouldn't have even mentioned that.

Re: rivered a boat 3 way
 

results?

results
 

I raised to 750, and the SB pushed. The BB folded, and I folded.

Re: results
 

Nooooooooooooooo!

Re: results
 

I think SB could push here with AA/KK/QQ/not much, don't you?