Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

This hand came at the end of a 2-hour 15K downswing a while back. Relevant background is durr is pretty crazy and I probably haven't been adjusting to his play well. Earlier this week he bluffed me out of a pot with 45s after 3-betting my UTG raise. At a different table, I decided to adapt by floating his 4-bet preflop with a PSB left in my stack and showed him QT when he check/folded a KJx flop. Since then, he has made a few pointed references about me sucking (particularly in that hand, but in a couple threads on 2p2). Anyway, the next time I deal with durrrrrr we don't run into each other too much despite his position on me. Then this hand comes up.

tl;dr: Durrr thinks I suck and I have been struggling to adjust to his preflop pressure.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Hero ($2266.50)
Button ($4795.50)
SB ($8009)
BB ($2652)
UTG ($1230)
UTG+1 ($7836)
MP1 ($3981)
MP2 ($2271)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $80</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls $70, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($180) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $120</font>, SB calls $120.

Turn: ($420) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($420) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $180</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $440</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $7809</font>, Hero...?

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

FF,

Why did you check the turn?

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

[ QUOTE ]
FF,

Why did you check the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Diablo,

When running bad I often check behind on the turn here in order to both practice pot control and make my hand more transparent.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

[ QUOTE ]
FF,

Why did you check the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]beat me to it.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FF,

Why did you check the turn?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Diablo,

When running bad I often check behind on the turn here in order to both practice pot control and make my hand more transparent.

So why raise the river if your doing it for pot control....?

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FF,

Why did you check the turn?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Diablo,

When running bad I often check behind on the turn here in order to both practice pot control and make my hand more transparent.

So why raise the river if your doing it for pot control....?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's less likely to make a move on the river than the turn was the thinking, so I can make a value bet in on the river whereas on the turn I'd have a tough decision to make if he c/rs was the thinking. Needless to say I'm not happy with how I played this hand in general. Now on to the river action

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

Durrrr peals so much on the flop not firing again is criminal.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

I fold, its fishy.Just dont feel right.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

Call river...

But since you didn't, I see a call here. He senses weakness and given you guys' history I think pushing is warranted.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

I don't think the river is a call. QJ TT are possible in FF's range, so it would be strange for durrr to risk 2000 for 1000.

Also, durr river bet is prob a pair, if he thought FF was making a move then calling makes since since the hands to be making a move are AQ AJ etc.

Turn check sucks as said above.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think pushing is warranted.

[/ QUOTE ]
AAAH.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

was the question about the line in general.. or the river call? in general, i jam the turn too, but i dont hate a chekc behind. if you are doing it i like the raise, but to a shove.. i fold to his shove all day. feel free to exploit me. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] holla

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

Based on your history, it seems as though this large overbet is there because he thinks you'll make a looser call because of his earlier lag play. I think it's a fold, and not very close either.

BTW, next time don't check turn.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

[ QUOTE ]
Based on your history, it seems as though this large overbet is there because he thinks you'll make a looser call because of his earlier lag play. I think it's a fold, and not very close either.

BTW, next time don't check turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's not really an overbet.

fold btw although everyone has said what I think already.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

[ QUOTE ]
was the question about the line in general.. or the river call? in general, i jam the turn too, but i dont hate a chekc behind. if you are doing it i like the raise, but to a shove.. i fold to his shove all day. feel free to exploit me. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the question was about the river. Honestly, I don't find the turn to be atrocious, although given durrrr's probable suspicion of my button it's definitely letting him off the hook. Maybe not the best spot for pot control, but it can't be that awful IMO.

Anyway, I folded the river which I was worried at the time I was just doing to stop the bleeding of the day. Glad to see it seems like an obvious fold. Durrrrrrr showed 88 FWIW. Nasty.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

I don't think the turn check is as bad as everyone else makes it out to be. It's perfectly fine as long as you're doing it to trap, rather than for pot control. There's no reason to fear being behind on this board.

What I don't like is your turn check combined with your river play. The small raise just reeks of a marginal hand looking for value that can't stand heat. Would you ever bluff this small? Probably not. Would you raise this small with a set? Probably not, because you're checking the turn in order to get paid more than you would by betting. QJ? I don't think I've ever played against you, and I don't know your style, but most good players won't make such a small raise with a monster.

Raise it up to 650-700, then you can feel free to fold to a push.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

You let him hit 99 or 1010?

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

[ QUOTE ]
Durrrrrrr showed 88 FWIW. Nasty.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. owned.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

FF,

"Glad to see it seems like an obvious fold."

I did not think it was an obvious fold. In fact, I would never make that river raise of yours if I were going to fold to a push.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

Following up the mistake to raise on the river by throwing away more money can't be good either, so that logic must be flawed.

Still, it's never a clear fold, it's always a percentage fold. Writing this, I don't remember which color your first card had, but in this case I'd call if both aces were red.

Btw, nice stop bet fake on the river by the villain.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

[ QUOTE ]
FF,

"Glad to see it seems like an obvious fold."

I did not think it was an obvious fold. In fact, I would never make that river raise of yours if I were going to fold to a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree w/ this 100%. Especially against durrrr. Extra, extra specially if you've been warring w/ him, which it sounds like you were.

Also, I would say to bet the turn, but then I'd just be beating a dead horse.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

[ QUOTE ]
What I don't like is your turn check combined with your river play. The small raise just reeks of a marginal hand looking for value that can't stand heat. Would you ever bluff this small? Probably not. Would you raise this small with a set? Probably not, because you're checking the turn in order to get paid more than you would by betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post, especially given the opponent. If this hand were posted here from the villian's POV, there would be many posters here advocating a 3-bet bluff push on the river, for just these reasons.

It seems like the OP was influenced by other factors (and we all have been) but this was a poorly played river.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

durrr is tough to play against because of stuff like that. especially if he knows you are a thinking player. that line he took can be complete air or the nuts. or a real thin value shove. tough hand. holla

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

how was durrr so sure you didn't have the nuts yourself

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

[ QUOTE ]
how was durrr so sure you didn't have the nuts yourself

[/ QUOTE ]

well thats the beauty of poker isnt it.. holla

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

[ QUOTE ]
how was durrr so sure you didn't have the nuts yourself

[/ QUOTE ]

As has been said... because the river raise was too small.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

Durr is the illest

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

FF, I haven't read any responses, but I think that you put yourself in a very difficult position by checking the turn. That being said, I don't hate your having done so. I think that if you can accept this difficult decision, it might be the highest EV (though most difficult) way of playing this hand.

Normally, I would lean towards folding, but your description of the player evens that up a bit. But this statement:

"Anyway, the next time I deal with durrrrrr we don't run into each other too much despite his position on me."

ultimately makes it a fold for me, although it is a very very close decision given the rest of the circumstances you described.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think pushing is warranted.

[/ QUOTE ]
AAAH.

[/ QUOTE ]

time to be results oriented and say i told you so [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

I'm with Diablo on this one, I really hate that river raise if you're planning to fold to a push.

By checking that turn and then making thar riverraise your CLEARLY define your hand as being a weak checked KQ or AK on turn pretty much all the time , and by him knowing that the ONLY hands better than AK that you can have is KT or TT, and that is of course the chance he is taking, since on balance your going to have AK/KQ a lot more often I believe. I generally do not like checking here on the turn at all, but if I do, it's as edge says - not for pot control, but rather to make a thinking player do something like this, even though I generally much more prefer a c/r in durrs place. For 180, weak kings + QQ/JJ are calling and also most likely AT as well, the only hands that bet is folding out are bad tens as well as 9s. QQ/JJ are most definately checking behind, so against all those hands you just cannot win the hand unless you bet more, like closer to pot to representa king on your own (although if you do this you will lose to KQ since he will never raise you if you pots it). I generally like a check here tho, hoping he bets to get in a checkraise given that he knows that I know that he just very rarely will have a big hand here (as said, only KT and TT) and much more often some king of king, and he knows that we knows this. I'd, as I say, prefer a potbet to a halfpot, since that way we can at least make QQ/JJ and tens fold. The only reason durr is betting halfpot is that he's hoping villain has exactly a king so he then can 3-bet when villain is trying to raise for value. So, basically were giving him money when he has QQ/JJ/AT/perhaps a very weak king) by betting halfpot, while still giving us a good chance to make him fold if he has KQ/AK and decides to raise. If we instead check we lose nothing more to QQ/JJ/AT, whereas we will be able to make any king (now even a weak one since he will definately bet that on river given how the hand was played) fold by c/r:ing.

So, in summary, just bet turn here most of the time.

I would call here instantly given stacks, how the hand played out (mosty importantly turn) and the fact that durrr is very good and probably will be doing this move here quite a lot, since it's definately EV+ against anyone he feels is rather weak, and most players who check behind here on turn with a K too often generally are. He could even be doing this with AK himself (for valuee) if he decided to cold-call preflop.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

vs a player like durrr i think it just makes sense to make your decisions easier, hence people saying jamming turn or planning to check turn and get it all in on the river. i think youre just making yourself overthink these situations. i do agree its a super tough hand but again making your decisions easier vs players like him is also too important to pass up betting turn here a lot, and if you dont, not backing down on the river. sucky hand overall i probably puss out at the table also.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

FWF, I give you a lot more credit than you think... fwiw. Also i think a lot of the responses in this thread (always bet that turn... never raise/fold the river) are ridiculously dumb and exploitable. I realize that a few posters probably said things like this hoping people would think they would never raise/fold the river (when they actually do it all the time). Your line was fine imo- and so was your fold- i dunno if i like my bluff or not- as i think you probably have a pretty strong hand here a large % of the time- and if your thinking of looking me up w/ AA then i assume any set calls.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dunno if i like my bluff or not- as i think you probably have a pretty strong hand here a large % of the time- and if your thinking of looking me up w/ AA then i assume any set calls.


[/ QUOTE ]
can you exapnd on this durrrrrr?

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

Its posts like this that keep me reading this site.
You guys are sick.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

[ QUOTE ]
and if your thinking of looking me up w/ AA then i assume any set calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know if you remember the hand, but I went pretty deep into my time before mucking. A set is a definite call and two pair is slightly closer than AA but obviously not significantly so, so whether I would call with two pair in that spot is hard to say. Anyway, it was truly a puzzling bluff just because I didn't know what you were representing and AK or AA are the only relatively clear folds there IMO.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and if your thinking of looking me up w/ AA then i assume any set calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know if you remember the hand, but I went pretty deep into my time before mucking. A set is a definite call and two pair is slightly closer than AA but obviously not significantly so, so whether I would call with two pair in that spot is hard to say. Anyway, it was truly a puzzling bluff just because I didn't know what you were representing and AK or AA are the only relatively clear folds there IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree w/ a lot of this fwiw.

Re: Interesting hand vs. Durrrrrrr
 

"I did not think it was an obvious fold. In fact, I would never make that river raise of yours if I were going to fold to a push. "

why is this Diablo? I think a number of hands worse than AA might call a river raise. And of course (when not bluffing), a reraise to FF's raise will indicate a better hand that aces. I think that if you never raise in these situations (without commiting yourself to calling a reraise), you might be leaving a lot of value on the table.