Teach Me Restealing
 

I feel like I need to confess my sins. I am pretty solid multi player but I freeze up trying to resteal in the last two tables of big events.

If its a smaller event I have no problem but when I see five and six figure payouts I get nervous.

I'm not a total weak tight ninny because I'm ridiculously aggressive on the button and sb when folded to me.

My problem is I am very hesitant to pull the trigger out of the BB with so so cards against an aggressive button.

Can anyone pass on thoughts or advice?

Here is what I know:

1. You need to resteal more the more aggressive the raiser is.

2. You need to resteal more the more likely it is the aggressor is going to lay down a hand.

3. A hand like T9s is a good non premium type hand to go with.

Here's what I don't know:

1. What are ideal stack sizes for resteals

2. How often should I resteal generally with a crappy hand like 7-5 against an aggressive button.

3. Any other tips?

I think I've probably cost myself a nice sports car or two by not pulling the trigger at the right time.

I guess on the other hand you could easily lose it all on the resteal.

I think part of my problem is it goes against my playing style which is flat call a lot from the big blind and checkraise bluff or bet. It works with deep money but not shallow money.

Any help welcome!

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

resteal with hands that fare well against his calling range

Say after your reraise, there is X in the pot and it is costing him 3X more to call. (So, 3X to win 8X.) This is a very good resteal size.

You want to resteal only when you think he is opening a wide range / tight 3bet range.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

1. Stacks with M's in like the 7-12 range are great for resteal pushing from the blinds.

2. Don't just arbitrarily push 75 against an aggressive button..take into consideration how often he has been doing this, whether or not he is committed by your push, how often you have been restealing. That being said, I probably resteal against aggressive late position raisers maybe around 30% of the time.

3. Many aggressive players love to raise out of the cutoff and CO+1 positions, even moreso than the button.

4. Calling OOP with marginal hands against aggressive raisers who can have anything- generally not the best of lines.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

At least 30BB? Resteal attempt would be under 1/3 stack if Villain 3-bet jams?

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

a great thread on restealing can be found here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

im too drunk to make a coherent response now, but i promise i'll pwn this thread tomorrow!

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

Are you talking about a resteal push all in, or just a raise.....very important difference between the two.

My thing is to decide to resteal against a guy before the cards are dealt. You know who is opening too much, decide before the cards.

Good case in point. Live $1K tourney. An aggro guy would open UTG every single time because he knew the BB to be uber-tight. When I had about 15BB's and he had done it 3 times in a row, I thought..."Next time he does it I'm coming over the top", and the next time did he open UTG, I pushed XX he folded....etc.

Also, the SB is an excellent place to push all in over an over aggro raiser in LP because:

-you only have one unknown hand behind you to contend with so most of the time BB folds to your push easily (the times the BB wakes up with KK and pwn your your 92o suck, but its rare)

-it doesn't look like you are re-stealing as much and more credit for a hand because its not your BB.

Other random thoughts:

I try to resteal against a stack that I can hurt if he calls and loses, not a big stack

Cards never, ever matter if you are re-steal pushing. Its all about fold equity against someone raising light....the extra 5% you get from doing it with T9s instead of whatever you get dealt doesn't matter. Do it when the time is right. If the cards are right you are raising for value, not re-stealing.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

Very good points so far. I'm learning a bunch, will respond later but I mean reteal pushes from the bb. I am ok raising on the button or late position.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

do some calcs to show yourself that even if you get called a bit too often you still won't lose THAT many chips on average...it helped me overcome the fear of risking a lot on garbage

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

Brujita,

Resteals are about a number of important factors, and very often the least of which is the quality of your hand. The thing with resteals, is that all they REALLY are about though, is risk-reward. If someone with 80bbs opens and you shove for 80 behind him, obviously this is a bad play.

Also, resteals are a pretty straight foward mathematical decision. If you are shoving T9s for example with 15 bbs, into a lp raiser, there is a definite % that he needs to fold in order for it to be profitable. Assuming no antes, if you are in the bb with a hand that is 2-1 on average against a normal calling range, and you have 15 bbs behind your blind, your opponent raises to 3 bbs, sb folds and you shove, you are risking 15 bbs to win 4.5. When you are called you will lose roughly 5 bbs on average. Thus if you are called 60% of the time, 6/10 times you lose 5, 4/10 you gain 4.5, for an avg loss of 1.2 bbs I think. btw I am not a math person, I am just sort of improvising.

Ok, so in that example 60% is too high for it to be profitable. If he calls 40% of the time, you win 4.5 60% of the time, you gain 7/10 bbs. Hmmm, so somewhere in the middle is the % he needs to fold for it to be profitable.

Ok, but how do you determine that magical % threashhold that will tell you how often he calls? Well that's what reading players is all about. If it's Gobboboy raising your blind, you have huge folding equity, because he's a maniac and likely has crap. If it's rizen, you have much less folding equity because he is a fairly tight player, and doesn't auto raise the button like some others. If it's Comeonphish, don't try it at all because he will insta call with A4o (seriously).

Ok, so it's essentially a very intuitive and mathematical question of hand ranges and folding equity, and risk-reward.

The reason I used 15 bbs as a number, is because that is prime restealing territory for effective stacks. Realize that I say effective stacks-- if you are a big stack and a 15 bb stack raises your blind-- shove it in there pretty light obviously. Like I said it's about risk reward, so that's why 15 bbs is very often a good number. The villain will not be priced in with air, so you have folding equity against hands like a8o and KT, etc, but at the same time you aren't risking TOO much.

There are a few common mistakes that people will make though, (including myself) regarding interpreting folding equity.

1) They pick the wrong player to pick on. 12 left in the stars 150, comeonphish raises from the sb to 3x, i shove 14x with Q8, he INSTAcalls with A4o. There are certain people who just won't fold. They protect their raises so that people won't resteal on them, and it makes it nearly impossible to effectively resteal with air.

2) They push when no matter what they have no folding equity. If you are hovering aroung 10 bbs with an ante, you have very little folding equity. But at the same time this means you need to readjust what hands you are pushing. If for example you have A7o and someone raises your blind, you do have at least a little folding equity, and if you determine that you are neutral EV with the overlay versus his range, you should obviously push with any folding equity. That's where so much EV comes from late in tournaments of course- pushing those small edges when you are shortstacked. So as I was saying, when you are short and shoving with little folding equity, you need to be sure you are going to be ok against his calling/raising range. Very often you have more folding equity than you should however. The day Rizen won the 1m, I was also relatively deep. People who were watching might remember how often I restole from the idiot pansy 2 to my right. One round he raised my blind, I shove for 9 bbs with A6o and he folds getting around 2-1. Next round he raises again, I shove K4o for around 10 bbs this time (blinds went up and I stole a few times), and he folds again. Schaefar then writes in the chatbox "Welcome to pwntown. Population, you." ty schaefar. So clearly if you are restealing from the right people, what they "should" be doing isn't what they will be doing- in both senses. You need to realize when you have either increased or decreased folding equity.

3) Shoving for way too much. If someone who covers you opens your blind, and you have something like A9o and 25 bbs, it's ok to fold. You are ahead of his range likely, but that doesn't make it right to raise. Typically if you reraise but don't push you are comitted to a push, so for math purposes it is the same risk/reward. If you are shoving 25x he really needs to fold a huuuge % of the time, or be a total monkey and call with A2o and KQ.

Conditions:
There are certain situations which will affect your folding equity in huuuuuuuuuge ways obviously. Any bubble, money, final table, anything- will typically increase folding equity. Very obvious, but people don't resteal enough when it's just so easy to on the bubbles. The reasons are two-fold. 1) You will have increased folding equity against the weak tighties good hands, because they don't want to risk their precious "tournament life" and all that crap. And 2) The smart aggro players are going to be raising any 2 in position, and therefore you fold out a huge % of their range, and pick up the free mobneys.

For example, the other day in the 150, there were 60 or so left and 45 paid. I was at a pretty good table, no big names, and it was playing pretty tight. I had a decent stack of around 25 bbs. The 3-4 players to my left ALL had around 12-18 bbs, very good territory for restealing my raises, but they were all weak tight bitches so I was raising almost every button, CO, and hijack. These guys were literally passing up free chips because they have to realize my range is so wide that not pushing is giving up serious +EV.

There are situations (like above) which in my opinion are horrible if you aren't restealing. Back when ZeeJustin won the stars 500, I was watching with a friend, and there were 11 people left--(FT bubble...) and ZJ had a massive chip lead with around 3 million. Blinds were 25/50k and a guy with around 800k opens to 150k on the button. ZJ is in the small blind. I immediatly say to my friend "I'd bet any amount of money that ZJ resteals w/ any 2 here." sure enough he put the guy all in and he folded. Unless you have a very specific read on why it's a bad spot, a situation like that is perfect. The guy is a few places from more money than he has ever seen probably, and has just been put to a test for all of his chips. Obviously he isn't going to call off with marginal holdings there.

The value of your hand-

Despite what people say sbout your hand being irellevent, it isn't totally the case. Clearly there is a point at which if you have 20% equity versus a reasonable calling range, versus 40%, if you shove 20% with x folding equity it will be -cEV, but if you ahve 40% equity with that same x folding equity, it becomes +EV. The reason however that people will say things like "your cards don't matter" is because a lot of the time you are so clearly +EV to shove 42o or whatever if he's opening 100% and calling with 10%.

Position-
It's obviously a sliding scale, the later they open from, the wider their raising range is, but also the wider their calling range is. If you shove over an ep raise 10 handed, you better have a hand because people obviously will have a tight opening range here. But in late position, people are raising comparatively much wider and calling off with a smaller % of their opening range to a reraise. However, know the player- just because someone opens from the button DOESN'T mean they have A2o. People get real hands on the button as well.


I hope that helps, I may have some more [censored] later.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

That was a great post, Ansky.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

Awesome post, Ansky.

Is there any way to consolidate the threads on restealing and add them to Anthology? It's a very important topic that is missing there.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

Thanks Ansky, I've been in kind of the same boat as Brujita, very nice post.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

Wow that is a really great post. There are a bunch of really good posts in this thread.

The ironic thing is I am pretty solid at the math part of poker, its probably my strongest suit.

A couple of additional thoughts:

1. at the end of tournaments you need heart as well as fearlessness. A bit of it comes from experience, my hands shook as I first made the final table of a Party super. Now they only shake when a mess up will cost me big figures. That is party due to a bigger bankroll, but partly due to having more experience and just realizing worrying about results rather than process just kills you in the long run. Part of the heart equation though is just internal, its like gatorade says do you have it in you.

2. You need a lot of self belief to become a good poker player to withstand the heartbreak of the game. But you also need imo the ability to say I need to improve this part of my game because its weak. The needed ego sometimes makes it hard to acknowledge where we struggle. It seems to me often we are uncomfortable in the parts of the game that are opposite of our strengths. I like to flat call a lot from the blinds and defend them pretty strongly early, so it is hard for me to transition late.

3. In the final four or so tables I am able to steal almost at will it seems because nobody plays back and people are nervous, the people who get to the end are often the ones who are more aggressive and so it seems you don't get that much chance to practice against the aggression. But the picking the right players thing is huge.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

brilliant post. restealing is a great weapon and you describe its conditions very well. cheers.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

Very well articulated discussion - while the content is fairly intuitive, Ansky's explanation is clearer and more complete than I could ever make it. One thing I noticed missing is the +++ev of stealing after CO-1 raise, and callers. Here you are getting nearly 3 times the amount of value, and thus the min fold equity requirements plunge and allow for any 2 very often with resteal-sized stacks - upgraded perhaps to 17ish bbs min. to compensate for the 1-2 3bb calls. While the original raiser obviously conforms to the same standards as Ansky described, the callers dish out vastly greater fold equity, as we can eliminate most pairs from the call range. AJ+ and the random mid-pair may call, but the calling range here for a default player is miniscule.

Another thing I notice is many people try a resteal with effective 15bbs by reraising a 3bb raise to like 7bbs and then stopngoing the other 8 or even checkfolding(!!). Unless trying to represent AA, this seems retarded. I almost always just push these types of resteals, as the amount of fold equity added by not tempting the original raiser to call the 4bbs on top exceeds his willingness to lay down a hand to this half-reraise that he wouldnt fold to a push.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

ansky,

awesome post. <3.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

Thanks for making this my first Favorite Topic thread Ansky!

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

Add to favs

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

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Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

ansky, do you use pokerace or something similar that helps inform your resteal reads?

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

[ QUOTE ]
ansky, do you use pokerace or something similar that helps inform your resteal reads?

[/ QUOTE ]


No, I never use pokerace for tournaments. I just watch the action...

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

[ QUOTE ]
Brujita,

Resteals are about a number of important factors, and very often the least of which is the quality of your hand. The thing with resteals, is that all they REALLY are about though, is risk-reward. If someone with 80bbs opens and you shove for 80 behind him, obviously this is a bad play.

Also, resteals are a pretty straight foward mathematical decision. If you are shoving T9s for example with 15 bbs, into a lp raiser, there is a definite % that he needs to fold in order for it to be profitable. Assuming no antes, if you are in the bb with a hand that is 2-1 on average against a normal calling range, and you have 15 bbs behind your blind, your opponent raises to 3 bbs, sb folds and you shove, you are risking 15 bbs to win 4.5. When you are called you will lose roughly 5 bbs on average. Thus if you are called 60% of the time, 6/10 times you lose 5, 4/10 you gain 4.5, for an avg loss of 1.2 bbs I think. btw I am not a math person, I am just sort of improvising.

Ok, so in that example 60% is too high for it to be profitable. If he calls 40% of the time, you win 4.5 60% of the time, you gain 7/10 bbs. Hmmm, so somewhere in the middle is the % he needs to fold for it to be profitable.

Ok, but how do you determine that magical % threashhold that will tell you how often he calls? Well that's what reading players is all about. If it's Gobboboy raising your blind, you have huge folding equity, because he's a maniac and likely has crap. If it's rizen, you have much less folding equity because he is a fairly tight player, and doesn't auto raise the button like some others. If it's Comeonphish, don't try it at all because he will insta call with A4o (seriously).

Ok, so it's essentially a very intuitive and mathematical question of hand ranges and folding equity, and risk-reward.

The reason I used 15 bbs as a number, is because that is prime restealing territory for effective stacks. Realize that I say effective stacks-- if you are a big stack and a 15 bb stack raises your blind-- shove it in there pretty light obviously. Like I said it's about risk reward, so that's why 15 bbs is very often a good number. The villain will not be priced in with air, so you have folding equity against hands like a8o and KT, etc, but at the same time you aren't risking TOO much.

There are a few common mistakes that people will make though, (including myself) regarding interpreting folding equity.

1) They pick the wrong player to pick on. 12 left in the stars 150, comeonphish raises from the sb to 3x, i shove 14x with Q8, he INSTAcalls with A4o. There are certain people who just won't fold. They protect their raises so that people won't resteal on them, and it makes it nearly impossible to effectively resteal with air.

2) They push when no matter what they have no folding equity. If you are hovering aroung 10 bbs with an ante, you have very little folding equity. But at the same time this means you need to readjust what hands you are pushing. If for example you have A7o and someone raises your blind, you do have at least a little folding equity, and if you determine that you are neutral EV with the overlay versus his range, you should obviously push with any folding equity. That's where so much EV comes from late in tournaments of course- pushing those small edges when you are shortstacked. So as I was saying, when you are short and shoving with little folding equity, you need to be sure you are going to be ok against his calling/raising range. Very often you have more folding equity than you should however. The day Rizen won the 1m, I was also relatively deep. People who were watching might remember how often I restole from the idiot pansy 2 to my right. One round he raised my blind, I shove for 9 bbs with A6o and he folds getting around 2-1. Next round he raises again, I shove K4o for around 10 bbs this time (blinds went up and I stole a few times), and he folds again. Schaefar then writes in the chatbox "Welcome to pwntown. Population, you." ty schaefar. So clearly if you are restealing from the right people, what they "should" be doing isn't what they will be doing- in both senses. You need to realize when you have either increased or decreased folding equity.

3) Shoving for way too much. If someone who covers you opens your blind, and you have something like A9o and 25 bbs, it's ok to fold. You are ahead of his range likely, but that doesn't make it right to raise. Typically if you reraise but don't push you are comitted to a push, so for math purposes it is the same risk/reward. If you are shoving 25x he really needs to fold a huuuge % of the time, or be a total monkey and call with A2o and KQ.

Conditions:
There are certain situations which will affect your folding equity in huuuuuuuuuge ways obviously. Any bubble, money, final table, anything- will typically increase folding equity. Very obvious, but people don't resteal enough when it's just so easy to on the bubbles. The reasons are two-fold. 1) You will have increased folding equity against the weak tighties good hands, because they don't want to risk their precious "tournament life" and all that crap. And 2) The smart aggro players are going to be raising any 2 in position, and therefore you fold out a huge % of their range, and pick up the free mobneys.

For example, the other day in the 150, there were 60 or so left and 45 paid. I was at a pretty good table, no big names, and it was playing pretty tight. I had a decent stack of around 25 bbs. The 3-4 players to my left ALL had around 12-18 bbs, very good territory for restealing my raises, but they were all weak tight bitches so I was raising almost every button, CO, and hijack. These guys were literally passing up free chips because they have to realize my range is so wide that not pushing is giving up serious +EV.

There are situations (like above) which in my opinion are horrible if you aren't restealing. Back when ZeeJustin won the stars 500, I was watching with a friend, and there were 11 people left--(FT bubble...) and ZJ had a massive chip lead with around 3 million. Blinds were 25/50k and a guy with around 800k opens to 150k on the button. ZJ is in the small blind. I immediatly say to my friend "I'd bet any amount of money that ZJ resteals w/ any 2 here." sure enough he put the guy all in and he folded. Unless you have a very specific read on why it's a bad spot, a situation like that is perfect. The guy is a few places from more money than he has ever seen probably, and has just been put to a test for all of his chips. Obviously he isn't going to call off with marginal holdings there.

The value of your hand-

Despite what people say sbout your hand being irellevent, it isn't totally the case. Clearly there is a point at which if you have 20% equity versus a reasonable calling range, versus 40%, if you shove 20% with x folding equity it will be -cEV, but if you ahve 40% equity with that same x folding equity, it becomes +EV. The reason however that people will say things like "your cards don't matter" is because a lot of the time you are so clearly +EV to shove 42o or whatever if he's opening 100% and calling with 10%.

Position-
It's obviously a sliding scale, the later they open from, the wider their raising range is, but also the wider their calling range is. If you shove over an ep raise 10 handed, you better have a hand because people obviously will have a tight opening range here. But in late position, people are raising comparatively much wider and calling off with a smaller % of their opening range to a reraise. However, know the player- just because someone opens from the button DOESN'T mean they have A2o. People get real hands on the button as well.


I hope that helps, I may have some more [censored] later.

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Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

Nice post Bruce. That was almost as good as Ansky's post earlier in the thread. Keep up the good work.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

i had something to add, but now im too drunk. maybe tomorrow.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

[ QUOTE ]
i had something to add, but now im too drunk. maybe tomorrow.

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, that was like 2 weeks ago already.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

very informative post..... and i pretty much concur...

two biggest things are 1) who's raising?; 2) big blind style/stack..........

i really find these big tournaments come down to alot of stealing, re-stealing... and sometimes you have to plug your nose and play your opponent and not your own cards (and most cards have some shot if they're live anyway)

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

What about the little buyin tourneys like $11 and below... is restealing so hard to do here it is just -ev overall to make any attempt?

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

[ QUOTE ]
What about the little buyin tourneys like $11 and below... is restealing so hard to do here it is just -ev overall to make any attempt?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You might not expect them to fold ATo to a reraise, but for different reasons.

For example, at the final table of the stars 100r, I raise the button with A2s 6 handed, and MrSmokey1 shoved for like 17 bbs and I called. I called for a different reason that a 10 dollar donk might make that call- ie, I called because I expect smokes range to be super wide, and a 10 dollar donk might call because ACE, TWO, SOOOOOTED!!!!

There are of course weak tight players in 10 dollar tourneys, and there are also all kinds of bad players. Knowing how to exploit them is important, but don't assume it means you can't make moves on them.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

If anything, I'd say that there are more weak-tight players in low buyin tourneys...at least somewhat into the tourney, after the crappiest laggers have exited. Fewer people realize that you're restealing, or have the nuts to call you if they do.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

Holy crap! This is a top-of-the-line post, Ansky. I'm gonna jam my mouse-pad through the printer. Though, it might be easier to just stick it on the notice-board above my monitor. Will be practiced in my upcoming tournies...

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

So I think we've covered restealing with effective blinds in the 15 BB range pretty well. I know that this post (and the other in the Anthology) have greatly improved my game when I get into that range. I'm constantly looking for spots to push and this has been working brilliantly.

But while a 15 BB stack is an ideal spot to re-steal push, we clearly have to look at other opportunities to re-steal with larger stack sizes. So that's the question I'm posing: How do we most effectively re-steal with stacks of varying sizes above that magical 15 BB range. Clearly we're looking for the same spots as previously mentioned. Loose raiser, tight players left to act, etc.

At 20 BBs: If we re-steal by popping it to 9 BBs, that's almost half our stack. So we pretty much have to call a pre-flop push and push any flop. That doesn't sound too appealing to me. It seems like at 20 BBs we really have a horrible stack for re-stealing (again, this is all part of a question; I'm not stating what I believe to be a certainty).

At 30 BBs: If we re-steal by popping it to 9 BBs and get pushed on pre-flop, there's about 40 BBs in the pot and it's costing us 21 BBs to call. We're getting 2 to 1 and probably need to call pre-flop. Same problem as in the 20 BB range.

At 40 BBs: Re-stealing to 9 BBs and getting pushed on gives us 1.6 to 1 odds. We can safely fold pre-flop when we're restealing with air. Of course, IF (and that shouldn't happen often at all) we're called the pot will be 19 BBs with 31 BBs behind us. It would suck to put in a 10 BB continuation bet and have to fold losing half our stack. But that's shouldn't happen so often as to worry about it and if you've got a decent read on your opponent you should probably have a good sense of when to continuation bet or not.

Clearly having more than 40 BBs we can re-steal in the right situation and have enough chips so that options are available. And at 15 BBs we can safely push and the risk-reward justifies our action. The grey area, in my opinion and what I'm looking for guidance on, is how to re-steal (if at all) when in that 20-40 BB range (well, maybe it's 20-35 but close enough). Are re-steals still in our playbook and if so what's our plan if pushed into pre-flop or called and we see a flop?

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

As a follow-up to my previous post, one possible re-stealing line (as suggested by Woodguy among others I'm sure) is instead of re-raising pre-flop to just call the loose raise in position and then raise the flop. This might be the optimal re-stealing line when you've got that difficult stack of, say, 25-35 BBs. We eliminate the pre-flop commitment of our stack and can still probably win about 2 out of 3 times when the raiser misses.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

Ok, last bump of the morning... I promise [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

Someone just PMed me asking about this, thought I'd bump it.

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

buuuuuuump. somebody plz reply to Lloyd. pretty pretty plz??????

Re: Teach Me Restealing
 

[ QUOTE ]
As a follow-up to my previous post, one possible re-stealing line (as suggested by Woodguy among others I'm sure) is instead of re-raising pre-flop to just call the loose raise in position and then raise the flop. This might be the optimal re-stealing line when you've got that difficult stack of, say, 25-35 BBs. We eliminate the pre-flop commitment of our stack and can still probably win about 2 out of 3 times when the raiser misses.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this line might work best around the bubble vs the medium stacks.