Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play?
 

Location: Bay 101 in San Jose, CA
Stakes: $20/$40 They just raised the rake to $5 per hand...sucks!
Players: 9-handed. Semi-Loose, semi-aggressive. Not the greatest game, but not the worst game either. I'd say there is an average of one chop every orbit.

Principal Players:

BB - Fairly solid older player, and aggressive...more aggressive than the rest of the players. He will raise the flop and bet the turn with bottom pair and flush draw (but will not bluff the river when he missed). He will call a check-raise with QT on a AQx and raise the turn when a T appears, but fails to value bet the river.
LMP - Loose passive.
CO - I'm in CO with a fairly tight-aggressive image. I had just raised the hand before in an isolation attempt with A8o against a weak MP player. That attempt failed when I was called by SB (AJo for winner) and BB. So I might appear looser at this very moment.

Preflop: There are 4 limpers including LMP and I raise in CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB folds and BB calls. 6 players to the flop...

Flop (12.5 small bets - 6 players): A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
BB bets, folds to LMP who calls, I raise, BB 3-bets, LMP cold-calls 3, I 4-bet cap and all call.

Turn (12.25 big bets - 3 players): 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] BB bets (with an air of determination), LMP calls, I call.

River (15.25 big bets - 3 players): 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] BB bets, LMP sighs and folds, I ????

All comments and thoughts appreciated.

Garland

Re: Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play?
 

ugg. would he 3 bang you with AK or AQ from the bb preflop? If not then I think calling is much easier though given your read it looks like he must have KQ, AJ, A10, J10 or a set.

This is a jumbo pot though so you would have to be fairly certain with your read to let this go.

Re: Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play?
 

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Stakes: $20/$40 They just raised the rake to $5 per hand...sucks!

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Damn, are you serious? I guess I'm sort of glad I won't be home for the summer.

In my limited experience a lot of the people at Bay 101 won't 3-bet AK/AQ preflop, especially in this situation with so many limpers. But I don't think your average Bay 101'er would ever play this way with a hand that we beat. Because his read is that the villain is more aggressive than the rest of the players, I don't really want to fold here. Maybe I'm just a fish, though.

Re: Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play?
 

Raise the turn. If he 3-bets again you can fold that river unimproved. Your draw is so huge that I am just not a fan of the call on the turn.

Re: Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play?
 

I like the 4-bet cap on the flop, that's a smart thing to do. The BB knows you capped the flop and he should know you have at least an ace or the flush draw. He wants the flush draw out but he might put you on 2 lower clubs and not AKs.

He is not afraid of an ace but he is afraid of the flush that's why he keeps betting so he probably has QK or AJ and has you beat.

The way you played it you should call the river, because you might have the best hand and you need to be 93.80% (15125/16125) sure that he has you beat. If you can read people you can be 93.80% sure and fold the hand.

He is not afraid of any ace better kicker and he kept betting and raising all the time.

The tricky part here is that you didn't 3-bet on the turn so logically he didn't put you on AK and might have put you on AQ or worse. So he might think that his AK is good enough because you didn't raise and he puts you on a flush draw.

Taking this into consideration you should call the bet. But I would prefer a turn 3-bet to keep him fair. If he calls (and does not raise) you can be fairly sure he does not have QK (because he wants the flush gone so he would cap it with QK) and call the river bet. If he raises you could call and fold the river unimproved.

But you would have to be very sure 94.81% (1825/1925) that he is not capable of bluffing on the river or betting this with AK or even 89 of clubs.

Usually I am not that sure about the actions of a player and will sometimes call his bet because I would be sick if he collected over 700 dollar with a worse hand and it's your own fault that he felt he had the best hand.

Re: Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play?
 

This is the perfect time for a free showdown play. Raise the turn and check behind on the river unimproved. If you get 3 bet on the turn, you can fold the river.

Re: Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play?
 

Raise the turn and bet river for value.

Re: Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play?
 

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Raise the turn and bet river for value.

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I don't think the river is a value bet at all, when we are hoping the BB is pumping AQ. A solid, very aggressive player like this will likely have hero beat with that board if hero doesn't improve.

Haupt_234

Re: Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play?
 

id call here getting 16 to 1 he could have ak also

Re: Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play?
 

Before lots of people start talking about getting 16:1 on the end I just wanted to point out we need to be good way more often than that if we are resigned to call down from the turn no matter what.

(Not trying to be weak-tight nitty... I pay this off like it's my [censored] job !) [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play?
 

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Before lots of people start talking about getting 16:1 on the end I just wanted to point out we need to be good way more often than that if we are resigned to call down from the turn no matter what.

(Not trying to be weak-tight nitty... I pay this off like it's my [censored] job !) [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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He isn't calling down from the turn. He has the nut flush draw and an ISD. It's a very robust hand.

That being said, I'd tend to call the turn because the other caller has acted. Had he been behind, a raise would've been in order. Raising is reasonable with your redraws, but it is likely enough that you're behind that I'd prefer not to bump it. The way the hand has played the turn would likely then go to three bets. Of course, you could be free rolling another AK and a weaker club draw in which case your turn raise makes you look like a savant. I don't think that happens enough to justify a raise but we can always dream.

Call that river.

p.s. are all the limit games getting raked for $5 now or just 20/40 and above? Did they get rid of time collection for the bigger games? That's a usurious rate.

Re: Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play?
 

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p.s. are all the limit games getting raked for $5 now or just 20/40 and above? Did they get rid of time collection for the bigger games? That's a usurious rate.

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jfk,

I wasn't at the other limit games, but I inquired about them with other players and the dealer. At Bay 101 it appears all limit games $20/$40 up to $100/$200 now $5 drop (no more time collection for the bigger games). All limit games below $20/$40 are $4. I believe at least one of the spread limit games drops $5 for a $200 max buy-in. It appears either I need to take my $20/$40 to Garden City ($4 per hand), travel to Lucky Chances ($7 per half hour) or play the $15/$30 at Artichoke Joes ($3 per hand + $1 jackpot). When I asked a player at Garden City, she said that Garden City is going to raise the rate to $5 come July. I don't know about the reliability of that statement though. If they all raise the rake, I just guess I'll have to take my game to the next level...$100/$200 here I come! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

BTW, thank you for your response. I absolutely love your comments. By the sounds of things, it looks like you may play around these parts. Are you from around here?

Garland

Results and thoughts...
 

I hemmed and hawed and folded.

Flop thoughts: I obviously had a monster hand with TPTK, and a gutshot straight flush draw. 4-betting for value is a must.

Turn thoughts: I really think that a flaw that 2+2ers have is that they assume (1) players play the same way as us or (2) they don't adjust their game from online to live. Let's think about this: I've shown strength pre-flop and 4-bet strength on the flop, and this guy still leads into me on the turn. This guy doesn't care if I'm going to raise. I have absolutely no fold equity, and it's virtually a lock I'm behind to BB. IMO, raising is a disaster as I'm begging to get 3-bet causing me to pay the absolute maximum for my draw, which has weakened somewhat on the turn. Although this guy is aggressive, I didn't say he was reckless or dumb, nor is he necessarily of 2+2 caliber. This is the reason to call.

BTW, if it happened to get checked to me, I was going to check behind. Do you think this is wrong?

River thoughts: This is where my instincts kick in as a player. Despite getting huge odds for the pot, I could not possibly put him on a hand that I can beat as there is no way any one at that table plays AK that way so hard, even the most aggressive of them. And despite getting about 16:1 for a huge pot, I took a minute and folded and also expected him to show. He showed KQo for the nuts. I asked LMP what he hand, he said Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Man, what a payoff I would have gotten if a club came.

Thank you for all your thoughts,

Garland

Re: Results and thoughts...
 

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He showed KQo for the nuts. I asked LMP what he hand, he said Q5. Man, what a payoff I would have gotten if a club came.


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I agree with the way you played the entire hand, FWIW.

Haupt_234

Re: Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play?
 

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BTW, thank you for your response. I absolutely love your comments. By the sounds of things, it looks like you may play around these parts. Are you from around here?

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You're very welcome and thanks for the kind words. You guys do the hard part in posting the hands.

I am local. If you're the guy I'm thinking of, we've been at the table together a few times. It may not happen again for awhile if places start going to a $5 rake. WPX is ruining me for live play.

Re: Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play?
 

hi garland

haven't read the responses to your post but assume that you've been told that the iso raise with A8 from that position is not good.

you're a little better off calling the 3-bet and raising the turn from LP. this way you use your positional advantage. do you see how the cap provides your opponent with valuable information that he would otherwise have to guess at? he knows that you have a made hand and you know that he knows this as well. furthermore, he knows that you know that he knows. if he has a hand that he can safely fold to a turn raise, the cap enables him to do so. therefore he bets out. now, instead of raising because; you may be in the lead by a sufficient enough margin; to make the draw pay; and for the free showdown in the event that you don't improve, not to mention that if you are reraised you will be able to make the call with ease, instead gar you have wasted these, your precious positional rights, and have given your opponent both barrels while holding open throttle.

sadly, there will be no free showdown in this one. i was able to gleen as much without having finished reading your post beyond the flop.

when you have precious positional safety rights that afford you greater and greater information while your opponent is struggling to assess what you may or may not do, go ahead and fire away, but do so at least with closed and not open bore. you will keep your opponent guessing this way and garner or save extra bets on the expensive round that can really add up. of course, without those precious positional safety rights, blasting away on the flop like this to make your opponent pay the very fullest makes much more sense as you lack vital information now and your intelligence will unlikely improve on the later rounds.

Re: Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play?
 

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but do so at least with closed and not open bore

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Correct.

Re: Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play?
 

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you're a little better off calling the 3-bet and raising the turn from LP. this way you use your positional advantage. do you see how the cap provides your opponent with valuable information that he would otherwise have to guess at? he knows that you have a made hand and you know that he knows this as well. furthermore, he knows that you know that he knows. if he has a hand that he can safely fold to a turn raise, the cap enables him to do so. therefore he bets out. now, instead of raising because; you may be in the lead by a sufficient enough margin; to make the draw pay; and for the free showdown in the event that you don't improve, not to mention that if you are reraised you will be able to make the call with ease, instead gar you have wasted these, your precious positional rights, and have given your opponent both barrels while holding open throttle.

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This sounds interesting, but I can't understand it because the wording, spelling and punctuation is unclear. Could you please rephrase this?

Basically what I got from you is that if you call the 3bet and raise the turn you will get calldowns from worse hands. Is that correct?

Thanks for any elaboration.

Re: Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play?
 

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but do so at least with closed and not open bore

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Correct.

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clark, are you bumping every thread elysium has posted in?

as to the OP - you said you would check the turn behind if checked to? I think this is a bad idea. You have TPTK and the nut flush draw. still a great chance you have the best hand lots of equity regardless. I don't like a turn check through. If you are c/r on the turn it makes your river laydown much easier.