timing tells and a hand
 

do you guys use timing tells?

i dont think we can actually talk about "how long" something takes to mean something, but its interesting nonetheless. krishan made a post "Blink as it relates to poker" in mid-high recently, which is, i guess, an interesting book that might relate to poker.

i would like this thread to be one for hands where you think you used a timing tell. post one whether you were right or not.

in this hand, on the turn, i did not believe this guy - obviously, or i would not 3-bet third pair. so i 3-bet him to get to the showdown for free instead of having to call and call again. when he bet the river, wow, i just thought, no way, so i called. what can i say, im a big fish (this guy was 38/5/2 btw)

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4.6SB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3.3BB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (9.3BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 11.3BB
<font color="#white">BB Shows Ks 10c</font>
<font color="#white">Hero Shows 8s 8c</font>

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

On which street did you pick up on the timing tell and what was your thought process in interpreting it? Also I really like your call on the river (even though this may seem results oriented) because obviously the 5 didn't help his hand unless he's on Q5 off or 95o and if he'd hit a draw with 78 I should think he'd try to check raise and so in his mind the only way to win is to bluff at the pot. Again I'd like to hear where the timing tell was in the hand.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

Hero raises in MP with AK, loose and somewhat aggressive villain calls on button, BB calls.

Flop comes 952r, check, Hero bets, villain calls, BB folds.

Turn brings a 7 putting 2 diamonds out there. Hero takes longer than usual and bets, villain insta raises.

Felt this insta raise post flop, now that it was HU was a typical "strong when weak" so I called him down. He had QJo and MHIG. It helped that the flop was 3 way as I thought he would have raised if he had a piece of it. But I usually muck AK there without a better read, so I guess the timing tell was key.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
wtf

[/ QUOTE ]
that was back when i just didnt believe in anything. i used the timeless excuse "what is he's peeing, what if his baby is playing on his account, what if he sneezed." blah blah blah. timing tells are real.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises</font>, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6.67SB, 3 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, Button folds.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5.83BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: 9.83BB

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4.67SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3.33BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (9.33BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Results:
Final pot: 9.33BB
<font color="#white">Hero Shows As Qh</font>
He had two diamonds, mhig

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises</font>, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5.67SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3.83BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: 7.83BB

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB 3-bets</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5.67SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4.83BB, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: 8.83BB

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
4 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2.8SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2.4BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: 4.4BB

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

dont get me wrong, i have obviously made plays like this that didnt work. of course i choose not to remember those ones so i cant exactly find them to post here.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
On which street did you pick up on the timing tell and what was your thought process in interpreting it? Also I really like your call on the river (even though this may seem results oriented) because obviously the 5 didn't help his hand unless he's on Q5 off or 95o and if he'd hit a draw with 78 I should think he'd try to check raise and so in his mind the only way to win is to bluff at the pot. Again I'd like to hear where the timing tell was in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
when he check raised the turn he waited the perfect amount of time. it felt like he was going to fold and then clicked raise. with the 2nd club falling i thought it was pretty likely he had a flush draw. when he donked that river, i was just like, o rly? if the river card were a club or a T/J i would have folded.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

hand 1 - if you didn't believe him, why not call and call again? it seems like the most profitable line to take.

related - does anyone try to defend against others getting timing tells on you? whenever i don't get action with a monster i'm afraid i leaked too much info w/ timing.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

lol, i don't think i've ever pulled off a screwplay bluff w/ success after opening in the sb.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

waffle,

calling and calling never gives him the chance to fold. all these times these guys are folding to my turn 3-bets, they're making pretty massive mistakes (just about guaranteed based on my cards). also just calling down gives them no chance to fold a better hand - i know it doesnt happen often but its still another benefit to 3betting the turn.

of course my other option in the 88 hand is to just call down, but i choose to call down on the turn basically. i dont think there are many people who have the sack to bluff cap me after i 3-bet like this so im not too worried about getting outplayed. his river lead was unexpected and retarded on that card, so i called it.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

ya, true. somehow i've started playing with a mental shorthand that my FE = 0 when these donks put a lot of action in. i guess i should cut that out.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

miles,

what are your basic thoughts on timing tells now? does long pause = strength, quick = weakness in general? is there more to it?

at the moment i don't use timing tells much at all simply because they could mean so many things. but i do believe they exist. i think maybe we need to consider them opponent-specific like we do everything else instead of over-generalizing? idk, just some thoughts.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

the real question of this thread should be: How the hell did you get people to fold on Absolute?

The only reliable timing tell, is the think for a long time raise, by a bad player, which usually means a monster. But I've seen some good players give the false timing tells also.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

That's why I like my shittay satellite internet connection. Pauses between plays for me are anywhere between 1 and 4 seconds, and there's nothing I can do about it.

But it helps throw people off when they're guess what I'm trying to do.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

Don't be seduced by the dark side of the force Miles. Once you become a LAG, you will forever become a slave to the dark side.

Seriously though, I think you've discovered why LAG's play the way they do, and why they can last in the game longer than you think they should.

It would be interesting to find out if this truly is a long term +EV play. Most of these look like you need a 25% success rate or so.

Maybe the timing tell is enough, but I think the semibluff 3bet with the OESD/FD definitely + timing tell definitely has merit.

I guess you need the parlay of finding players that can bluff/semibluff raise/fold turns, AND have that indecision timing tell. If you are able to make that read, one can argue you either need to move up or add another table.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

I have a timing tell. It's when the pot has been raised preflop and I whiff on a flop checkraise. The turn comes a blank (or semi-blank) and I bet immediately. If I didn't have anything, I wouldn't be auto-betting the turn.

Also, I find that when someone bets and is raised, a quick 3-bet almost always means a very strong hand.

I think my own timing tells (excluding the first example) are non-existent, since I'm playing several 6-max games at once, I can pause for several seconds with a monster hand as well as act quickly with one. I often wonder if any of my opponents are reading into these "tells" which don't exist.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

yeah, but then again, some people are multi-tabling, esp. at 5/10
to use the time-tell, then do periodic checks to see if any of your opponents are at any other tables

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

Jake,

when the pause gets too long i begin to ignore it. i think in certain spots the fast click and then just the barely delayed click mean certain things. the delayed c/r has very often been - well, a hand that folded to my 3-bet.


sharpobject -

i dont know, they werent folding today


that fish -

i am a huge idiot lagtard. i need to chill preflop, seriously.

bobhalford, suited77 -

if i know someone is multitabling (i do because im usually sitting at every table), i will discount any tell i might think i see.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

I haven't read through the whole thread, but my favorite tells are the auto-raise (esp. from a tight pre-flop raiser) and the "pause raise" (esp. on the river--now that's acting!).

You can glean some info sometimes when you believe they are thinking about a hand. This often means what it is: they have a marginal hand and don't know if they should continue or dump (sometimes the exact opposite). Sometimes randomly-timed actions are from multitablers not getting to the hand yet, etc...so I would suspect that timing tells aren't as reliable for better, but perhaps not great, players.

You also have to watch out for your own pauses in action. If they see you acting really quickly all the time and something happens and you can't get to the hand for whatever reason, villains may actually think it's a tell even if it's not...but they may respond differently.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

miles is my hero.

Notes on villain:
river chekcraise bluff
threebet 88 pf from button
turn checkraise semibluff

sb: Small Blind ($1.00)
ThGuruman: Big Blind ($2.00)
** Dealing Down Cards **
Dealt to ThGuruman: [ 6s Jc ]
utg: Fold ($0.00)
mpr: Fold ($0.00)
co: Call ($2.00)
button: Fold ($0.00)
sb: Fold ($0.00)
ThGuruman: Check ($0.00)
** Dealing Flop **
Community cards: [ Ad 6d Kh ]
ThGuruman: Bet ($2.00)
co: Call ($2.00)
** Dealing Turn **
Community cards: [ Ac ]
ThGuruman: Bet ($4.00)
co pause pause pause pause pause: Raise ($8.00)
ThGuruman pause pause : Raise ($8.00)
co: autoFold ($0.00)
** End Round **

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

I use "timing tells" to semibluff 3bet the turn when I'm running good. I think it was you who told me 3 bet semibluffing the turn was almost never correct. I only mildly disagreed with you then. Good to see you are using "timing tells" to come around [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

BTW- I like your line in the first hand against the right opponent without a timing tell. The one where you had AQo takes more balls then I probably have though.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

here's a timing tell hand from today.

villain is a 2+2er. converter isnt working so deal with it kindly

STAGE #380711549: HOLDEM NORMAL $5/$10 - 2006-06-12 22:23:14 (ET)
Table: ROCKY MOUNT (Real Money) Seat #9 is the dealer
Seat 9 - <font color="blue">2+2foldersons</font> ($301.81 in chips)
Seat 3 - randomap5/10moron1 ($113 in chips)
Seat 5 - randomap5/10moron2 ($82.11 in chips)
Seat 6 - randomap5/10moron3 ($175.92 in chips)
Seat 8 - <font color="red">milesdyson</font> ($302 in chips)
randomap5/10moron1 - Posts small blind $3
randomap5/10moron2 - Posts big blind $5
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to <font color="red">milesdyson</font> [Kh Qd]
randomap5/10moron3 - Folds
<font color="red">milesdyson</font> - Raises $10 to $10
<font color="blue">2+2foldersons</font> - Raises $15 to $15
randomap5/10moron1 - Folds
randomap5/10moron2 - Folds
<font color="red">milesdyson</font> - Calls $5
*** FLOP *** [Ad 3s 10c]
<font color="red">milesdyson</font> - Checks
<font color="blue">2+2foldersons</font> - Bets $5
<font color="red">milesdyson</font> - Raises $10 to $10
<font color="blue">2+2foldersons</font> - Raises $10 to $15 &lt;--- hello timing tell.
<font color="red">milesdyson</font> - Raises $10 to $20 &lt;--- hello getting capped
<font color="blue">2+2foldersons</font> - Calls $5
*** TURN *** [Ad 3s 10c] [9h]
<font color="red">milesdyson</font> - Bets $10
<font color="blue">2+2foldersons</font> - Folds &lt;--- hello pwn
<font color="red">milesdyson</font> - returned ($10) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
<font color="red">milesdyson</font> - Does not show
<font color="red">milesdyson</font> Collects $75 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($78) | Rake ($3)
Board [Ad 3s 10c 9h]

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

First, you just wanted to brag about a nice call (which it is). If I have a previous history with a player, and he starts auto betting me, I find that often they are bluffing. (that is if they are the type who would not usually bet so fast with a strong hand.)

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

dont use timing tells much miles. but i dont think that was why you decided to 3-bet the turn here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. river raise would have been sick as just calling a 3-bet and donking the river is such a rarely used form of extraction with a big hand since c/ring you would be the default play 95% of the time. that 5d is one of the best cards other than an 8 you could see as it keeps the board fairly spread and unflushable.

you felt you were best on the turn so i think you should still feel you were best on that river card. and i can understand that the villain probably doesnt call us with whiffs but he may be retarded enough to show down ace high. the villain had king hi this hand and im thinking he mucks but you never know.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

this is another against someone who has posted here before

he limps in MP (odd)

i raise KJo without thinking otb.

blinds fold. he just calls - good.

flop T84r, 5.66 sb.

he donks quickly, i call (probably a bad call)

turn the money card J (pot 3.83 bb)

he waits a little and checks. i check behind.

river 2r

he bets, i call.

he had 44.

bad play + good results?

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

Was this me? I'm such a tard.

Anyways, yeah timing tells are huge. It's not really those few long drawn out pauses, but those everyhand millisecond pauses that keep adding up. I really think that the key, atleast for me, is to not overthink it, and almost just let the subconscious do it's thing. I had a hand against anechaka the other day (who's a talented tag for those who don't know), where we went 4 bets, each holding Q high. No doubt we both had reads on one another.

Re: timing tells and a hand
 

I haven't really read any of the responses, but here is disseration on timing tells.

In the past, if you even brought up the notion of timing tells on this board, you would get savaged and lectured about what if the guy spilled a can of pop, what if he is jerking off to a particular internet porn site and just lost it, what if his crack-head girlfriend just told him shes having his unholy child, or what if the internet decided to lag right at that critical instant etc. etc. All of these things could have caused him to pause in the hand, and therefore this means that timing tells are unreliable.

Unfortunately, any tell in poker is unreliable, but it pushes the percentages in a certain way that can make decisions more profitable. There is no doubt in my mind that timing tells exist and can help increase ones profitability. Are they always accurate? No. But the odds that the internet lagged, the guys girlfriend dropped an a-bomb on him, or any other possible distraction occured at a curiously interesting point in a hand is somewhat small. These possibilities decrease the reliability of the tell somewhat, but they do not diminish its value.

The two main tells I see that I think are fairly useful are as follows. 1). A long pause before calling typically means the guy has a monster and will c/r you on the next street. This also is true sometimes when a player comes out and bets.

A slow response then a raise isn't as clear. I think many times this is a value raise, and the guy is trying to decide of he has the best hand or not. Sometimes this also can be a monster, but I think that rarely is it a pure bluff (aside from the normal unpredictabilities of the original tell). In short, watch out in this spot.

2) Fast betting or calling is either someone who definately has a decent pair hand and is either betting the whole way trying to look aggressive so that you will not believe him, or calling quicly with a marginal pair trying to tell you that he is definately calling down.

But all in all, these tells are not absolute, sometimes they are wrong. They do however change decisions to more profitable ones. I would never fold a decent hand to one of these tells, unless my reads and hand reading also tell me folding is the better option. I might however use these tells to stop raising when I normally might stay aggressive. I might check-call instead of betting.

In short, I think a lot of people are coming around on their philosophy on this because I think timing tells can definately be a valuable tool. But like anything in poker, its all about the percentages.