GOSH-DARN MINRAISERS
 

Villian's first hand. He posted UTG. Never played with before.

I hate poker.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2/$4
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $300
CO: $812.60
Hero: $664.90
SB: $451
BB: $100

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG (poster) checks, CO folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $20</font>, 2 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($46, 2 players)
UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $40</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $80</font>

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

Push, he's 75BB behind at start of hand.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

you're probably behind. i don't have the discipline to fold so i call and get it all in on turn cause at least then a worse king might get it in.l

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

I'm weird, but I check this flop a lot.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm weird, but I check this flop a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking this flop is not weird at all. Probably actually standard.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

why bet so big on the flop? 25-30 sounds good. Without any reads on this guy you can fold or call his minraise and see what he does on the turn.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

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why bet so big on the flop?

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nobody ever folds anyways, and I get raised less when I bet bigger.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

According to my min raise poll (although I have to say there certainly weren't thousands of responses) the most common* reason for the min raise is they have the nuts.

The second most common is they're trying to draw cheaply. It doesn't look like a draw would raise you on this board, so you're probably beat.


*The "I am a doofus" selection was actually the most popular response, but what the heck.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

Crappy spot, but I see to many of these bluffs to fold. Maybe call and see what he does on the turn.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

Calling is the worst play as I see it. Does another bet by him on the turn mean he's firing the 2nd barrel of a bluff, or that you're definately beaten?

Raise or fold. If he calls the raise it's check/fold mode.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

I don't think there is anything wrong will calling there and making a judgement on the turn. Often the shorter stacks make tiny donk bets from there.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

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I'm weird, but I check this flop a lot.

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Checking this flop is not weird at all. Probably actually standard.

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Doubt checking is standard.

I usually call these or push

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

[ QUOTE ]
Calling is the worst play as I see it. Does another bet by him on the turn mean he's firing the 2nd barrel of a bluff, or that you're definately beaten?

Raise or fold. If he calls the raise it's check/fold mode.

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I disagree totally against unknowns with that size of stack. So many of those that make minimum c/r bets like this then shut up or make small bets from then on, otherwise massively overbet.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

In this case you need to find out where you are sooner than later.

But first, you hit your flop and made a large bet. Did you want to tell him "i have a weak hand so I am trying to push you off of your hand?" If you thought you were good on the flop you would bet less.

I don't mind the min raise. I tells me he hit the flop with a K (like KQ, AK, or AA, ot 1010 or 55). Would you rather him raise you by $120? Also, why would he think he is going to push you off with a min raise. He is almost pot commited at that point.

You are either in great shape or deep Sh!t here. I lean toward the deep sh!t. You either fold or push here.

I would fold.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

I'm usually folding here. But with him posting UTG, looks like hes bad, may be overvaluing KF, getting stubborn with TJ, may have QJ or just think youre messin with him, and he will not be pushed around.

So, I'll call flop, fold to real bet on turn without improvement.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

Only idiots would say you should either raise or fold. You should either CALL or fold.

Checking is definately not standard (it never is headsup in position as a preflop-raiser at any given board), but it is fine some/a lot of the time.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

[ QUOTE ]
Only idiots would say you should either raise or fold. You should either CALL or fold.

Checking is definately not standard (it never is headsup in position as a preflop-raiser at any given board), but it is fine some/a lot of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree totally. Anyone who says calling is horrible is simply call-phobic... sadly, callphobia seems to be a major problem amongst 2p2ers.

Raising is sooooo bad here. it accomplishes nothing, except guarantees you losing alot to 2 pair or set.

I also agree that checking behind isn't standard vs. an unknown, but certainly would be against the right type of opponents. In this spot however, with only the read that he's likely bad and/or loose (or just misclicked), I bet almost always. but i think its a good spot for a smaller 60%ish bet... it'll be easier for him to make a bad call, and if he's loose you wanna encourage even more loose calls.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm weird, but I check this flop a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking this flop is not weird at all. Probably actually standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doubt checking is standard.

I usually call these or push

[/ QUOTE ]

How much money are you gonna win with this hand?

I'd rather induce a bluff on the turn and use my position, rather than be stuck wondering if my opponent wants to make a move against me on this flop.

Everyone plays different however.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

OMG freakdaddy! Welcome back!

How's the 100BB challenge coming along?

I would bet less on the flop, and I would just call the min-raise, then play poker on the turn.

Against some villians, with a good image, I will re-raise for value.

And checking is fine and good, on occation, as well. Specific conditions I would prefer to have in place would be agro villian who will fire with air. Some sort of reason for people to think that I might not be continuation betting as frequently as normal. To be seen calling down light, in recent hands.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

call, AI on turn.
easiest hand, i love busting ppl on their first hand in the game.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

&gt;&gt;&gt; Only idiots would say you should either raise or fold. You should either CALL or fold. &lt;&lt;&lt;

My top choice by far as I said initially was folding, I'm not sure what calling achieves. Let's call and see what happens - if he bets the turn, what does this mean?

If the bet is large, do you fold? Perhaps a small bet means he's bluffing. On the other hand a small bet might be just inticing you to call (again). If he doesn't bet is he just slow-playing trips? Who knows. Do you just call the turn and the river out of curiosity? At least if you raise and he pops you back you know you're done with the hand.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

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&gt;&gt;&gt; Only idiots would say you should either raise or fold. You should either CALL or fold. &lt;&lt;&lt;

My top choice by far as I said initially was folding, I'm not sure what calling achieves. Let's call and see what happens - if he bets the turn, what does this mean?

If the bet is large, do you fold? Perhaps a small bet means he's bluffing. On the other hand a small bet might be just inticing you to call (again). If he doesn't bet is he just slow-playing trips? Who knows. Do you just call the turn and the river out of curiosity? At least if you raise and he pops you back you know you're done with the hand.

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Sometimes shove turn. Sometimes fold turn. Sometimes call down. Sometimes call turn/fold river.

Play poker.

Raising the flop loses a good amount when behind, and nothing more, when ahead (Unless we have a great image, or are playing against a total donkey). Calling gives him a chance to make some more when ahead, while losing about the same, or less as a flop raise, when behind.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the flop loses a good amount when behind, and nothing more, when ahead (Unless we have a great image, or are playing against a total donkey). Calling gives him a chance to make some more when ahead, while losing about the same, or less as a flop raise, when behind.

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yeah. basically, raising makes it very easy for him to play perfectly against you, while calling at least gives him a chance to make a mistake.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

Call, raise or fold either way you are still "playing poker".

If he is ahead he has 2-pair or trips. If he has 2-pair, he may fold to the hero's reraise which to him could indicate the trips (perhaps hero raised KK pre-flop?)

If he's not convinced or has trips himself then he's going to let you know with a larger raise. Playing poker without information is hard, and merely calling gives you none.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

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If he has 2-pair, he may fold to the hero's reraise

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LOL, no.

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merely calling gives you none.

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This is false.

The only information that we gain by re-raising (again, against typical opponents) is "we are definitely beat." This information is not worth the price.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

Give up slartibartfast, you've gotten pretty much every concept there is wrong. Raising for information is the dumbest concept ever conceived in most cases; what it does is that is makes your opponent to play better against you. Fold out hands you beat, and let better hands continue. Raising looking to get re-raised to be able to fold comfortably is just folly, and things like "If he has 2-pair, he may fold to the hero's reraise which to him could indicate the trips" with 50bb is ridiculous. Realize that "raising for information" just pretty much sucks in most spots.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

Unfortunately, the Magazine article is gone, but this is a good thread about Raising for Information

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

I find it interesting that the best advice you can give is, "call, then play poker". That is an absolute gem I'm sure, but might be more useful to philosophers or zen buddhists than poker players.

MDMA I'll explain this to you once again: I play mid-stakes NL for a living, if I fail to understand these concepts then I obviously deserve a gold medal for table selection abilities! If you have a prefered way to play in this situation, then describe it precisely rather than merely adding negative comments.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

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I find it interesting that the best advice you can give is, "call, then play poker".

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Folding is clearly an option against some players, and re-raising is an option, with certain table dynamics, but this is by far the best way to play the hand, against typical players.

How to proceed on the turn depends on:
a) The turn
b) His bet sizing/timing
c) Reads

Very hard to give much more specific advice without this information.

[ QUOTE ]
I play mid-stakes NL for a living, if I fail to understand these concepts then I obviously deserve a gold medal for table selection abilities!

[/ QUOTE ]
Even if you only have a lead medal, you can still crush these games pretty easily, even without knowing all the ins and outs of the game, if you can make good reads/manipulate your opponents.

Nobody is questioning your overall skill at the game, but your ideas regarding this particular hand are completely incorrect.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call, raise or fold either way you are still "playing poker".

If he is ahead he has 2-pair or trips. If he has 2-pair, he may fold to the hero's reraise which to him could indicate the trips (perhaps hero raised KK pre-flop?)

If he's not convinced or has trips himself then he's going to let you know with a larger raise. Playing poker without information is hard, and merely calling gives you none.

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You need to at least call since you have position. He could have just taken a stab at the pot, he could have a worse King. I mean he posted, and then called a rasie OOP. His range is fairly wide including a lot of middle pairs.

I had a guy mini-raise me out of position in a raised pot last night on the turn with a pair and gutshot draw (he has 6,7). I had a pair and straight flush draw and had just raised the flop in position, he checked and I bet the turn to have him mini-raise me. Sometimes people do just goofy things that make no logical sense.

A call here lets him know you like you're hand, and he may just give up, but I think a fold is a mistake.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

'Call and play poker' means 'call and re-evaluate your position on the turn'. Call and play poker sounds a lot better which is why it's used in place of 'call this street and try to narrow down your opponent's hand range given his bet size on the turn, or lack of a bet, and play accordingly'. If he donks the turn small, you may raise - if he bets big, you may fold - you may call any of these too if you have some sort of timing read. If he checks you may bet yourself. You may check behind when he checks also. Since all these options are open and none of them particularly -EV, this is why we use the phrase 'call and play poker'.

Raising here on the flop is really bad.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

[ QUOTE ]
OMG freakdaddy! Welcome back!

How's the 100BB challenge coming along?

I would bet less on the flop, and I would just call the min-raise, then play poker on the turn.

Against some villians, with a good image, I will re-raise for value.

And checking is fine and good, on occation, as well. Specific conditions I would prefer to have in place would be agro villian who will fire with air. Some sort of reason for people to think that I might not be continuation betting as frequently as normal. To be seen calling down light, in recent hands.

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Thanks. Been playing a lot of live high stakes games lately for a change and not visiting the forum much.

The challenge went fine. I quit after ~4k hands, and came very close. Got bored and realized that people completely misunderstood my statements.

I agree that ideally I'd rather check against an aggro opponent in order to induce a mistake, but I do the same against an unknown in position for precisely these reasons with this hand and this flop. I don't want to play a big pot with this hand, but I'll gladly call down with position on turn and river.

I guess I've been doing these more in my live games and seeing good results. I haven't been playing a lot of online games recently though, but I thought I'd share this with the forum. A read a recent poll somewhere that when most amateur poker players are asked what are the key components of winning at poker the top two responses were bluffing and luck. I don't recall the number of responses, but I think that sums up the state of mind of a lot of our opponents.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

[ QUOTE ]
I read a recent poll somewhere that when most amateur poker players are asked what are the key components of winning at poker the top two responses were bluffing and luck. I don't recall the number of responses, but I think that sums up the state of mind of a lot of our opponents.

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LOL, what a bunch of retards. Don't they realize that the key component of winning poker is sweet shades and an iPod?

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

[ QUOTE ]
call, AI on turn.
easiest hand, i love busting ppl on their first hand in the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

zzzzz once again the answer is lost in a bunch of wordy other posts about god knows what

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting that the best advice you can give is, "call, then play poker". That is an absolute gem I'm sure, but might be more useful to philosophers or zen buddhists than poker players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps your problem is you assume those groups are mutually exclusive.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

[ QUOTE ]
A read a recent poll somewhere that when most amateur poker players are asked what are the key components of winning at poker the top two responses were bluffing and luck. I don't recall the number of responses, but I think that sums up the state of mind of a lot of our opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

The poker boom will never end.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
call, AI on turn.
easiest hand, i love busting ppl on their first hand in the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

zzzzz once again the answer is lost in a bunch of wordy other posts about god knows what

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

Big Jim:

I have actually bothered to think about this exact scenario and have taken a poll from 2+2-ers on the subject. I stated that most respondents think the min-raise means the nuts. I doubt this majority view is "completely incorrect", although it is certainly not impossible that you are miles ahead of the average poster.

If this is the case I'm not surprised you keep your valuable insight to yourself. I on the other hand have made my views clear in this situation; top choice - fold (as suggested by the poll results), next (by a long way) raise.

If you merely call you have delayed the exact same difficult decision to the turn, whilst potentially paying off better hands in the process. His small bet might mean the nuts, his large bet could mean the nuts, a non-bet could be a slow-play. Perhaps though you hit one of your 5 outs. Would you usually call a large bet with 5 outs? If you do is your 2-pair good or does he now have the full-house? Over 80% of online players are losers, I wonder what percentage of 2+2-ers pay their mortgage from the game like I do.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

[ QUOTE ]
Big Jim:

I have actually bothered to think about this exact scenario and have taken a poll from 2+2-ers on the subject. I stated that most respondents think the min-raise means the nuts. I doubt this majority view is "completely incorrect", although it is certainly not impossible that you are miles ahead of the average poster.

If this is the case I'm not surprised you keep your valuable insight to yourself. I on the other hand have made my views clear in this situation; top choice - fold (as suggested by by poll results), next (by a long way) raise.

If you merely call you have delayed the exact same difficult decision to the turn, whilst potentially paying off better hands in the process. His small bet might mean the nuts, his large bet could mean the nuts, a non-bet could be a slow-play. Perhaps though you hit one of your 5 outs. Would you usually call a large bet with 5 outs? If you do is your 2-pair good or does he now have the full-house? Over 80% of online players are losers, I wonder what percentage of 2+2-ers pay their mortgage from the game like I do.

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1. your poll is pretty much useless. sample size, lack of a random sampling, not to mention voting could include players of limits from 25 NL to 2k NL.

2. this is not a "fold or raise situation". call is far better than both options imo. you obviously dont see why.

3. you have position.

4. if you raise the flop, do you think he continues with a weaker K?

5. if you call the flop, and he bets 1/2 pot to pot on the turn, and you raise him all in, do you think he continues with a weaker K?

6. if you raise flop, do you think he continues with a bluff?

7. if you call flop, do you think theres a chance he bluffs again on the turn?

seriously slartibartfast. this stuff should be obvious.

Re: FUCKIGN MINRAISERS
 

"Over 80% of online players are losers, I wonder what percentage of 2+2-ers pay their mortgage from the game like I do. "

what does this mean? are you saying just because we dont play poker as a job, we are losing players? or something like that? i dont get it. i play and i am a winning player. and i say call this flop. other winning players say call this flop.

edit: and even if they DONT, they DEFINITELY dont say its only a "raise or fold" decision.

this is FAR from a raise or fold decision.