AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

Okay time to post a few hands.

Villain is a definite TAG. Tell me if I should have played this differently. I'm posting my thoughts after the hand.

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) McNeese72 is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">McNeese72 raises</font>, 3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO 3-bets</font>, 4 folds, McNeese72 calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8.5SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">McNeese72 bets</font>, CO calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5.25BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">McNeese72 bets</font>, CO calls.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7.25BB, 2 players)
McNeese72 checks, CO checks.

Pre-flop, with the 3-bet he probably has a high pocket pair.

Flop, despite the monotone flop (not my suit) and with top pair and good kicker, I'm probably ahead. I lead out and he just calls.

Definitely didn't like the fourth spade falling. I led out representing a spade incase he didn't have one. When he just calls, I figure he has one.

After the river blank, I check intending to fold to a bet.

Doc

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

You have been showing strength all the way to the river and then you give him a free showdown. Villain is not sure about his hand or he would have raised earlier on the flop or turn, the 5c is a blank and is not likely to have improved his hand, so bet.

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

I would bet/fold the river.

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
After the river blank, I check intending to fold to a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]


Then what were you drawing to? The only card(s) that help your hand with respect to his range are Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]/Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (if he's playing AK, and afraid YOU'VE made the set). As it was played, bet the river, intending to fold to a raise.

And, no, this isn't WA/WB, before somebody suggests that.

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet/fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with Hielko.

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

Word to your mother

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

Thanks, guys. I get whimpy when I'm having a bad session.

Doc

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]

After the river blank, I check intending to fold to a bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

Too fancy.

You're losing the whole pot when villain bets and you still have the best hand.

No one is raising this river if you're ahead, so you can safely fold to a raise. A lot of hands that would probably call a bet will check behind if you check (KK/99, AJ). Lastly, the same hands you beat will bet here if you check, so if you can't make yourself bet/fold this river, you have to check/call it.

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks, guys. I get whimpy when I'm having a bad session.

Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

standard. me too.

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

damn that flop donk is nasty

you realize that if you check call the flop he can put you on quite a wide range of hands right?

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

I didn't have a good feeling about how to play this hand, so I pokerstoved it:

Board: As 8s 3s 7s

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 34.2476 % 25.16% 09.09% { AhQh }
Hand 2: 65.7524 % 56.66% 09.09% { JJ+, AQs+, KQs, AKo }

I think that's a pretty accurate 3-betting range from a tag.

Boz- why is this not WA/WB at the turn? If he's got a hand we're afraid of we're drawing dead. If he doesn't he's drawing to a 1 out to win.

What is the villain calling the flop with? I think he may have decided he's going to showdown with AK,AQ or he's calling with a spade draw- Probably Js at the worst.

The turn call seems he's getting fancy with the Ks, doesn't like his Qs or Js or is continuing his call down with an A. None of these are good situations for us.

So I'm with OP on c/f here. I think villain would have a hard time bluffing at this pot with a hand we beat. Boz- are you advocating b/f to try and take this pot down without a showdown against a better hand, hoping for a call from a worse hand, or not wanting to have to c/f against a bluff. Or something else?

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
damn that flop donk is nasty

you realize that if you check call the flop he can put you on quite a wide range of hands right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm here to learn. Please expain and what do you recommend doing on the flop?

Thanks,
Doc

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

do you think this player ever checks this flop with a hand that 3-bets preflop?

what are you going to do if your flop bet gets raised?

couldnt you check call this flop with a huge range of hands? think KQ with a spade, any pocket pair with a spade, etc.

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Boz- why is this not WA/WB at the turn? If he's got a hand we're afraid of we're drawing dead. If he doesn't he's drawing to a 1 out to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Vill is anywhere near decent, we are nowhere near equally likely to be ahead as behind. Further, if we're ahead Villan hasn't enough outs to a full win and if we're behind we don't have enough outs to a full win.

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

Villain ended up having TT with the Ts.

Doc

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

&lt;Grunch&gt;
Preflop is standard and flop looks okay, too. As weak as it may sound though, I would consider checking this turn. It is quite likely that you're now way behind, or actually drawing dead. Betting here does provide you with enough information to safely check-fold the river, since he calls again. But still, I don't think villain would try to steal the pot on the river even if you checked on turn, indicating weakness. And I think it's very likely that all the worse hands will fold to this bet whereas better hands will raise. AK w/o the spade is the only better hand he might fold against aggression.

Edit: If villain checks behind on turn, definitely bet the river.

Just my thoughts,
Gray_Stork

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Betting here does provide you with enough information to safely check-fold the river...

[/ QUOTE ]

It does? Would you say the same thing if Hero had bet the river and Vill had folded?

[ QUOTE ]
And I think it's very likely that all the worse hands will fold to this bet whereas better hands will raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two pair or a set would be insane to raise on a four-flush board without a piece of it.

[ QUOTE ]
AK w/o the spade is the only better hand he might fold against aggression.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm actually quite surprised that Vill didn't fold his T-high flush.

[ QUOTE ]
If villain checks behind on turn, definitely bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because nobody ever slow-plays a made flush with position on the turn, right?

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain ended up having TT with the Ts.

Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

This is kind of what I figured . . . I was thinking JJ [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I dont think he calls turn bet with a hand that does not contain a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

However, I still have no idea how to play this hand.

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

OP-

Oh, good. You're the guy who has been inexplicably donking flops into me after I three bet preflop.

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
OP-

Oh, good. You're the guy who has been inexplicably donking flops into me after I three bet preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what do you recommend as a course of action for this hand?

c/c flop? check/raise flop?

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain ended up having TT with the Ts.

Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

Either you have a strange table-image or your TAG isn't as TAG as you think.

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

I would checkraise the flop for two reasons. First we aren't wa/wb anymore as there is a very live draw hanging around. He;ll check the turn behind a lot as well so we kind of need the innitiative.

Also, a lot of the smaller PPs that we might worry about folding by raising no longer fold, either because our hand range is extended once we raise because of the draw heavy board and because he himself may have a spade with which to draw.

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain ended up having TT with the Ts.

Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

Either you have a strange table-image or your TAG isn't as TAG as you think.

[/ QUOTE ]
do you seriously think he should play his hand any differently before the river where he should value bet?

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain ended up having TT with the Ts.

Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

Either you have a strange table-image or your TAG isn't as TAG as you think.

[/ QUOTE ]
do you seriously think he should play his hand any differently before the river where he should value bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah the villian played this hand great until the river. Raising the turn is awful as it just lets you get away from hands like AQ with no [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The river check is piss poor by him though.

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain ended up having TT with the Ts.

Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

Either you have a strange table-image or your TAG isn't as TAG as you think.

[/ QUOTE ]
do you seriously think he should play his hand any differently before the river where he should value bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa! Where did I say that? (In fact, my first response says that the river should be bet/fold.)

Oh, wait, you mean Villan! The missing river value-bet was my point: it's a peculiar line for a "definite TAG" to take on the river.

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm actually quite surprised that Vill didn't fold his T-high flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
i was addressing this statement more than the one i actually quoted

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm actually quite surprised that Vill didn't fold his T-high flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
i was addressing this statement more than the one i actually quoted

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, yeah. Put the two statements together, and they make a little more sense, to-wit: if Vill is TAG, he should be value-betting this river when checked to; since he didn't value-bet the river, I suspect he's closer to wTAP; if he's wTAP, I'm surprised he didn't fold his ten-high flush when bet into on the turn, and had Hero bet into him again on the river (as I advocated), I betcha he would have folded.

See?

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
OP-

Oh, good. You're the guy who has been inexplicably donking flops into me after I three bet preflop and you hit your hand

[/ QUOTE ]

OP is ahead of a 3 betting range of TT+, AKs, AKo. you may have been joking a bit in your post instead of criticizing, but I wanted to point this out. He's about dead even with JJ+, AK.
When not on a monotone flop AQ is a lot further ahead here.
I guess a lot depends on what definite TAG means for a 3 betting range.

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm actually quite surprised that Vill didn't fold his T-high flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
i was addressing this statement more than the one i actually quoted

[/ QUOTE ]


Oh, yeah. Put the two statements together, and they make a little more sense, to-wit: if Vill is TAG, he should be value-betting this river when checked to; since he didn't value-bet the river, I suspect he's closer to wTAP; if he's wTAP, I'm surprised he didn't fold his ten-high flush when bet into on the turn, and had Hero bet into him again on the river (as I advocated), I betcha he would have folded.

See?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are probably right. That was based on my PT numbers and he was a TA but that was a small sample of only about 60+ hands.

The only other hand I had with him was in a blind steal situation. I raised with Q10s in CO, we ended up heads up, and he called me down from the SB with QJ when the flop came Qxx.

Re: AQs headsup against a TAG reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
OP-

Oh, good. You're the guy who has been inexplicably donking flops into me after I three bet preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, even though I did it with this hand, I don't make it a habit of donking into preflop 3-betters.

Doc