Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

Villian is well known successful pro in these games...prob has good numbers on me. Folded to villain on the button who raises. I three bet in the SB with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. BB folds, villain calls. Heads-up to flop of 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I bet, villain calls. The turn is the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I check, villain checks. The river is the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I bet, villain raises and I call.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Jeff

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

I would not bet the river.

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

I like it because I think a large percentage of the time he will be doing this with another ace, but im curious as to why you didn't just c/c the river to induce bluffs from worse hands? I'd rather not put in two bets on this river if I could avoid it.

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

does anyone fire again on the turn?

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

I think your turn play is fine, your river play is terrible IMO. The last thing you want to do is invest 2BB's on this river with your hand. So either bet/fold or check/call, and given the action of this hand, I think check/calling the river is the far superior strategy.

I understand your turn line, you were checking with the intention of calling to get to the showdown cheaply so you never get outplayed off the best hand against this guy. Given the texture of the flop, getting bluffraised on the turn is real possibility if this guy uses his position wisely. So I like your turn play, next time check/call the river after this action.

Villain
 

Villain is Brocathamel - I'm surprised no one sees what I'm doing on the turn/river here (I understand it would "usually" be better to check twice). I'll explain a little later, hopefully can get some more responses.

Jeff

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

Seems good, everyone who says it is bad would be like "wow, awesome" if you just showed the bet, got called and won. I would usually call on the river but can find a fold every once in a while. Checking to induce a bluff sucks for obvious reasons.

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

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So either bet/fold or check/call

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Well well well. My favourite 2 options are the other 2: bet/call and check/fold [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

I like it. I believe you have a value bet on the river, and villains raise is wierd. But would he be giving you a free card on the turn on this board with a pair or better? The only hand I see you beat with is JT and that hand makes sense, but villain might be itching to fold our A high on the river when we bet.

I am not sure what to think about inducing bluffs by checking again on the river. If I was in villains place, I would percieve Jeffage's hand as one that is ready to soak up our bluffs unless an ugly card rivers. When Jeffage bets the river, his range actually widens - no longer he's simply content to go to a showdown, he might also have a much worse hand that has to bluff on the river. Thus, it is possible that villain is more likely to bluff if Jeffage bets the river. Inducing a bluff by betting pwns. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-pix

Re: Villain
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is Brocathamel - I'm surprised no one sees what I'm doing on the turn/river here (I understand it would "usually" be better to check twice). I'll explain a little later, hopefully can get some more responses.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about the turn check. The river bet/call is pretty standard I think.

Krishan

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

I learned something today. Thanks.

-Michael

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

[ QUOTE ]
I learned something today. Thanks.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

Just to recap:

Vs. a very solid player who is an expert handreader...

1) C/C sucks here because he knows you are calling with Ace high so his bet will most likely be for value if he does bet.

2) This is why C/F is better than C/C (he won't be betting a worse ace for reasons mentioned above)

3) A solid tricky player will be bluffraising here a reasonable amount of the time to make B/F a non-optimal option (although a standard TAG line)

4) Bet/call is the best of all choices simply because opponent thinks you think he will only raise with hands that beat ace high and, therefore, that you will take the standard b/f line.

Edit: actually c/f is probably worse than C/C

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

Villain could have A8, A7, K8, K7, maybe T8 or J8s. He figures you could have A9 and may want to avoid getting c/r'd on the turn. His river raise makes me put him on an 8.

If you want to protect against a possible steal from a weaker Ace or K-something, I could see check/call. Betting and getting raised here sux. I don't think your good often enough to call although you might be good occassionally. I'd rather not put myself in that position.

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

Jeff,

Just to clarify this concept, could you describe what kind of opponents you would c/call, bet/fold, and c/fold against?

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

Turn play is quite bad -- you just can't give a free card on such a coordinated board. Bet the turn and fold to a raise.

I don't know how Brocathmel does in the 20 game, but he's a pretty big loser in the 30 and, IMHO, his lack of success is pretty much commensurate with his playing ability. He's also been getting more timid postflop recently (at least against me), which leads me to think that the call of his river raise is probably not the right play.

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

I'm not sure that this particular opponent is not stupid enough to bet the river when you check.

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

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I'm not sure that this particular opponent is not stupid enough to bet the river when you check.

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haha. really, when did broca become an expert?

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

[ QUOTE ]
Turn play is quite bad -- you just can't give a free card on such a coordinated board. Bet the turn and fold to a raise.

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Isn't such a coordinated board the perfect spot for a semibluff?

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

I'm gonna say broca checks behind on this turn with any pair about 0% of the time. I like your line.

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

I think he will rarely bluff or bluffraise this river since he knows you are usually intent on showing down after you check the turn and/or after you bet the river. I guess you could have KJ/KQ/KT after checking the turn and he might be able to bet the river with JQ or KT or something and get you off your hand, but he probably wouldn't because your range is so heavy in ace highs.

Anyway, it seems the optimal river play depends on how often he has a weaker ace that will call and how often he has some sort of pocket pair or something (I'm pretty sure he will bet any pair if you check to him on the river). The key here is that his turn check usually means he does not have a pair, so his range is shifted towards weaker ace high hands like AT and AJ. I think there is a pretty good chance he calls the river with these hands.

Since there are way more weaker ace high hands than pairs (by combinations and by his play), it seems like betting is the play here, with check/fold being second best. If he raises I would call, but I dont think it will happen frequently enough to make check/fold better.

Check/call sucks imo because most good players will rarely bluff this river and if he had a bluffable hand like QT, it would often raise the flop as a semibluff.

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna say broca checks behind on this turn with any pair about 0% of the time. I like your line.

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this is key

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

Been a while since I've made any strategy posts, but Jeff, I really like your line.

1. Villain has a pair close to never.
2. Villain has [censored] like A6/A5/QJ/KQ/KJ/KT all the time.
3. Villain knows that on this coordinated board your bet/check/bet line is weak, and that your river bet is probably a thin OOP value bet. And he's staring at a nothing hand.

What would you do?

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

Perfect...you said it better than I would have.

Jeff

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

If I check call the river against a good player, most times he will only bet for value and not a bluff since he knows my broken wing act means I'm showing the hand down. So if I check, it's prob with the intention of folding against him. Yet if I bet, he will see I am probably betting Ace high for thin value and that I would be pretty likely to lay down to a raise.

I bet expecting him to raise and being pretty glad about it.

Jeff

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

Good post - we think alike.

Jeff

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

Villain is not checking behind a pair on the turn here pretty much ever. He either has a monster hand or nothing when he checks behind and he prob bets a monster on the turn rather than trying to get two bets on the river when he knows I might not call the raise. So when he checks the turn, it's very likely he has a worse ace or even less and may raise the river - he figures I was going for a turn checkraise or I was more likely dogging it with that board. So he prob thinks it's likely I will fold a better ace to a river raise yet if I checked, he would check such a hand behind.

Jeff

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

Check-call: Laggy, non-thinking opponent who would bet an ace there when he should just turn it over to see if it's good; someone I have notes on that will always bet if checked to but is generally a station (as in, he'd only call turn with open end, but then would bet it busted if you check but fold it if you bet). Another type would be people who don't make thin valuebets but do like to call - or just to mix it up. This is just a ramble, take it for what it is.

Bet/Fold: Someone who would call very light but would only raise with a lock hand..the type of person that doesn't bet the end with mid pair but will call with hands like a worse ace, king high, etc.

Check-Fold: After the turn action, I would only check fold to someone I know plays very well (as in, he knows I know he knows, etc). Even them, I wouldn't fold all the time.

Like everything in life, however, this all "depends."

Jeff

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

[ QUOTE ]
Turn play is quite bad -- you just can't give a free card on such a coordinated board. Bet the turn and fold to a raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the time, a bet goes in anyway and you save getting raised. Also, if I bet this turn with the intention to folding to a raise, I think it would invite disaster. I think check calling is fine as long as you checkraise frequently in your general course of play.

[ QUOTE ]
He's also been getting more timid postflop recently (at least against me), which leads me to think that the call of his river raise is probably not the right play.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not timid against me. Also, he can make plays and I think he'd see the chance to raise me off the pot with all the cards out so I wanted to give it to him.

Jeff

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

Coming from you, I take that as a huge compliment. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Thanks,
Jeff

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

If I was him with a weak hand, I may take this line but usually don't. It was weird, as the hand progressed, I just saw how the river was going to develop as soon as he checked the turn.

Jeff

RESULTS
 

Broc turned over K6 for a busted straight and my hand was good. How do we think he played it? I thought it was an interesting hand and I appreciate everyone's comments.

Jeff

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
Broc turned over K6 for a busted straight and my hand was good. How do we think he played it? I thought it was an interesting hand and I appreciate everyone's comments.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

He played it terribly. He's the sort of guy who is smart enough not to bluff off one bet but dumb enough to bluff off two.

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

brothels play stinks but i still bet the turn

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Broc turned over K6 for a busted straight and my hand was good. How do we think he played it? I thought it was an interesting hand and I appreciate everyone's comments.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

He played it terribly. He's the sort of guy who is smart enough not to bluff off one bet but dumb enough to bluff off two.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate,

In his shoes, do you play the same except fold river, or do you bet the turn? If Jeff only calls the turn, do you bluff again on the river or give up?

Re: RESULTS
 

The cat's out of the bag now, but when I was reading this I didn't see what was so hard to understand about a guy not checking behind with a piece on a 3 straight board. nh.

Re: RESULTS
 

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He played it terribly. He's the sort of guy who is smart enough not to bluff off one bet but dumb enough to bluff off two.

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I think this sums up most of this guy's game pretty accurately. I was surprised when the best players thread came out and broca was one of the biggest winners in the 20 game, because I have him on my blist [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Interesting 20 Hand Against Pro
 

[ QUOTE ]
he knows my broken wing act means I'm showing the hand down.

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Does this mean u would never check a hand without showdownvalue on both turn and river in a situation like this?

Re: RESULTS
 

Hmm, interestin read on Broc. I only play the 30 and 50, but this guy is on my friends list.

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He played it terribly. He's the sort of guy who is smart enough not to bluff off one bet but dumb enough to bluff off two.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this sums up most of this guy's game pretty accurately. I was surprised when the best players thread came out and broca was one of the biggest winners in the 20 game, because I have him on my blist [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't played with him much, definitely not enough to make judgements about his game, but his stats are somewhat similar/equal to poets and I have him ripping liver out of the 20 game for about 30k hands.

It seems to me that "DERB, the movie" got a sequel. This time the stage is set to 20 6max. Too loose to be profitable, but consistently and very profitable against the field, as long as those truly skilled don't step in his way, or, God forbid, he tries to tangle with them willingly at higher levels.

-pix

ps. "What's up with this 40/35 fish?" "He's a piranha."