$60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factory
 

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t2640)
UTG+1 (t4415)
CO (t1250)
Button (t975)
SB (t2900)
Hero (t1320)

Preflop: Hero is in BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, SB calls t75, Hero?

Villain is pretty much a massive calling station. Microbet's standard line here is to check and try to stack him + the fact he very well might not be able to bring himself to fold preflop. What's the fun of poker if you have to fold all the time?

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

Huh? Who's folding? Check and see a flop, of course.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

I'm making a joke about villain being a calling station. Sorry that wasn't real clear. My standard line is to push here, unless I have a read villain is tricky and put a trap as a significant possibility. I have no such read on this villain. Is that a leak?

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm making a joke about villain being a calling station. Sorry that wasn't real clear. My standard line is to push here, unless I have a read villain is tricky and put a trap as a significant possibility. I have no such read on this villain. Is that a leak?

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Are you saying villain is a calling station? Then I'd think a push here would be a pretty big leak. You want to value bet a calling station when you hit the flop, not try and shove him around preflop with a hand that's about as solid as... oh, I don't know... a doily, I guess.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

I tend to agree with pineapple. Against this opponent, you'll get called with a wider range than you want PF, but have a better chance than usual of hurting him bad when you do make a decent hand postflop. Combined, I think checking is quite a bit better here. Pushing is probably all right, and against an opponent who would be betting often postflop is probably superior.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

I'd check.

A doily wouldn't be folded at the factory anyway. They're sold flat and stuck together.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd check.

A doily wouldn't be folded at the factory anyway. They're sold flat and stuck together.

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I was wondering if someone was going to catch that. I really just wanted to get 'doily' into a subject header somehow.


Reminds me of possibly my all time favorite sitcom line. Chris Elliott in Get a Life, trying to impress a date by pretending he owns the house he's watching for an old lady:

Date: "So this is your place? Why are there doilies all over the couches?"

Elliot: "Oh these? These are action doilies... for men." (he flings one across the room.)


Hard to say why, but that just kills me, like a lot of other stuff on that show.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

I push.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

I caught your other one too about the Creature's Ghost. That was Mr. Show right?

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

OP was pretty much right on, but I just want to clarify that I didn't say it was a 'standard line' or anything. I knew villian was very loose when I advised checking, partially because I don't trust him to fold many hands to a push and partially because I feel the implied odds are quite good if you hit something against him.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

FWIW - I pushed, villain didn't think very long and called with KJs. Certainly lending credence to the check-and-value-bet approach.

I've been racking my brains trying to figure out exactly what is going through villain's minds when they do stuff like this. Here is the best I can come up with: "Well I'd rather limp and see a flop, but if I have to call a push I will." Sound close?

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW - I pushed, villain didn't think very long and called with KJs. Certainly lending credence to the check-and-value-bet approach.

I've been racking my brains trying to figure out exactly what is going through villain's minds when they do stuff like this. Here is the best I can come up with: "Well I'd rather limp and see a flop, but if I have to call a push I will." Sound close?

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Yes. It's called "Loose Weak". The vast majority of players on Party think this way on the vast majority of the hands they play (although fewer at the higher levels). I imagine it's close on Stars.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW - I pushed, villain didn't think very long and called with KJs. Certainly lending credence to the check-and-value-bet approach.

I've been racking my brains trying to figure out exactly what is going through villain's minds when they do stuff like this. Here is the best I can come up with: "Well I'd rather limp and see a flop, but if I have to call a push I will." Sound close?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. It's called "Loose Weak". The vast majority of players on Party think this way on the vast majority of the hands they play (although fewer at the higher levels). I imagine it's close on Stars.

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And the way to beat loose weak players is to value bet them to death.

Let that be a lesson to you, son. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

Check and see the flop

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

I go allin here most of the time, unless I have good reason to think my opponent could be trapping, which is very rarely.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

jesus, given your read, i still push very quickly. i mean, put him on a range that makes this push -EV and how often does he hold one of those hands? my god you have QTo heads up. do you realize how good your hand is?

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

after seeing curtains reply, he is spot on. you still have huge equity in pushing here against 95% of opponenets

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

btw, most of the time when i see a calling station it applies to post flop and not to a push here. so unless you think you can really outplay him enough to make a big cEV gain, i push PF.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

Push PF will usually work - seems to work best when opponent is in the mold of complete pf/auto-bet flop player. At least if you had seen that kind of action before, you'd be certain of pushing pf.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

A calling station is completing with close to 100% of hands here. Push.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

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jesus, given your read, i still push very quickly. i mean, put him on a range that makes this push -EV and how often does he hold one of those hands? my god you have QTo heads up. do you realize how good your hand is?

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It's 57.291% against a random hand. It's 48.265% against the top 50% of hands. It's 39.719% against the top 25% of hands.

I'm sorry, but I'm not having an orgasm over those numbers.

Given that this player is bad postflop I want at least a 1.0% edge in SNGPT to push this rather than seeing a flop. I get a range of 44+, A7s+, A9o+, KJs+ as equal to 1.0%. Something tells me he's calling with more than that, and if not, any gain I'm getting by pushing is tiny .

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

pineapple your quick math is really faulty because almost all those hands you have him calling the allin with, are hands that he would have often raised with preflop.

This is an unbelievable no brainer slam dunk push to me. Well ok I'm exagerating a bit, there are really really terrible players who I might occasionally just check here, but thats definitely a very rare exception. In any case I see nothing in suzzers very short read to convince myself otherwise. Moving allin is so so standard in this spot that I refuse to advise him against it based on some nebulous read that's almost surely irrelevent

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

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[ QUOTE ]
jesus, given your read, i still push very quickly. i mean, put him on a range that makes this push -EV and how often does he hold one of those hands? my god you have QTo heads up. do you realize how good your hand is?

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It's 57.291% against a random hand. It's 48.265% against the top 50% of hands. It's 39.719% against the top 25% of hands.

I'm sorry, but I'm not having an orgasm over those numbers.

Given that this player is bad postflop I want at least a 1.0% edge in SNGPT to push this rather than seeing a flop. I get a range of 44+, A7s+, A9o+, KJs+ as equal to 1.0%. Something tells me he's calling with more than that, and if not, any gain I'm getting by pushing is tiny .

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FE

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

I would check and look to de stack him if I hit the flop strongly

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

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pineapple your quick math is really faulty because almost all those hands you have him calling the allin with, are hands that he would have often raised with preflop.

This is an unbelievable no brainer slam dunk push to me. Well ok I'm exagerating a bit, there are really really terrible players who I might occasionally just check here, but thats definitely a very rare exception. In any case I see nothing in suzzers very short read to convince myself otherwise. Moving allin is so so standard in this spot that I refuse to advise him against it based on some nebulous read that's almost surely irrelevent

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1.) Of course the SNGPT's an approximation but Villain's loose-weak and he will be completing/calling a push with many of those hands and he will likely be calling with many hands outside that range, so yes it is an approximation I ran, but I think it's pretty darn close.

2.) This is not a push-or-fold decision, it's a push-or-check decision. There is significant +EV post-flop here. I know nobody likes to play post-flop but there you have it.

3.) I used to be much more aggressive in these BvB situations but finally decided it simply wasn't worth it against the donks I play against at the 109s (which are probably close to the 60s in skill level), so I understand the theory, but I just haven't found that it's worth it in practice.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

If I ever get my stats analysis program finished I'm sure it will show that when I push in this situation, the SB folds about 95% of the time. I quit worrying about the other 5%.

This is the only play that works consistently for me.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

[ QUOTE ]
pineapple your quick math is really faulty because almost all those hands you have him calling the allin with, are hands that he would have often raised with preflop.

This is an unbelievable no brainer slam dunk push to me. Well ok I'm exagerating a bit, there are really really terrible players who I might occasionally just check here, but thats definitely a very rare exception. In any case I see nothing in suzzers very short read to convince myself otherwise. Moving allin is so so standard in this spot that I refuse to advise him against it based on some nebulous read that's almost surely irrelevent

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it's the old curtains "i'm ignoring your read" play. you're basically never happy when you're called unless it's a smaller Qx or Tx. even if he calls with J9, i think you'd prefer to have just checked and played a flop (haven't done any math on that). and you're going to get called a lot of times, by crap like KJs and K3o. also, villain is passive, so he might show up with AQ or something here. i think checking is best given the read. without it, i'd push.

edit: i misremembered "massive" as "passive." some i'm not sure if passive was supposed to be part of the read, but most calling stations are passive, otherwise tehy'd be lags.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

I think his #s were like 40/3.6 or something. My standard is to push in spots like this, as most villains will fold. But this dude didn't think for very long and called with KJs. I think he just wanted to see a flop, and was willing to pay for it if he had to.

What I'm wondering is if this is standard from passive calling stations and maybe I should alter my standard push, to a call-value-bet approach, as many seem to advocate. I think I'll try that for a while and see how it goes.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

I push in these situations a lot too, but agains passive donks I have no problem with checking. The SB has already proved that he is most likely an idiot for completing here. Given that he has already shown that he sucks, why should I then give him credit for laying down a hand like K8o when I push?

Having said that though I will admit that I usually push, especially given that my hand is QTo which is significantly stronger than a trash hand.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

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I push in these situations a lot too, but agains passive donks I have no problem with checking. The SB has already proved that he is most likely an idiot for completing here. Given that he has already shown that he sucks, why should I then give him credit for laying down a hand like K8o when I push?

Having said that though I will admit that I usually push, especially given that my hand is QTo which is significantly stronger than a trash hand.

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Well yes Im pushing because I have QTo. Listen this time he had KJs (which you will beat a decent amount) but more often they may have something liek K7o or worse which the will almost ALWAYS fold. Also even loose passive guys are likely to raise hands like 88/AJo here..I mean he does raise 4% of the time according to your stats, which I'm sure arent over a HUGE sample size.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

i would still push this PF... he is probably completing with 40-60% of the hands anyway and you are going to have to catch something in order to win the pot.

Re: $60 - BVB - If I wanted to fold all day I\'d work in a doily factor
 

I push, calling station or no calling station. He can't call if he has like 73o. Honestly I don't see how there's even a debate about this, the pot contains like a quarter of my stack and my hand rates to be better than his on average. I'm not letting him take a flop for a quarter of my stack when I have a better hand than him. Also this type of player invariably minbets the flop whether they hit something or not, and I'm not keen to play guessing games on the flop when it is well and truly going to be push/fold at that point.