Pro poker player buying a house...
 

Hey guys...wondering if anyone here has some expertise on this subject. My girlfriend and I have been renting a place for a little over two years, kept renting longer than we wanted to because of concerns we might move...we've now decided to stay in town long term. We're looking to move in somewhere in September, as our lease is up end of August.

My grandfather is going to co-sign a loan for us...but I'm wondering how much impact it's going to have that she has a low paying job (non-profit work) and I have zero job. I play poker during the days and play music at night -- though, admittedly, my living is about 90% poker right now (trying to change that, but it's just easier making money at poker than at music at the moment). Will loan agents not give a crap since I have a co-signer who's rich with perfect credit and owns two homes? Or will my professions (not like either one of them are "stable" in most people's eyes) cause them to raise an eyebrow at the loan altogether?

If so, is there some creative way I could describe what I do for a living that would be better for purposes of the loan? Home-based business? Private investor (I think of each STT as an investment in my own abilities to play properly)? Would it be better if I claimed that music paid all my expenses?

Anyone with some experience at this, please help! If this is the wrong forum for this, mods, please feel free to move it. I debated about OOT or Zoo and landed on Zoo.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

I've been a mortgage loan officer for the last 15 years.

If I loan you money I want to be assured that you will pay me back. Therefore, show me your income (ie. two years of tax returns.) We figure if you paid taxes on it, it must be real income. I don't care if you are a heart surgeon, poker player or an, umm, exotic dancer. (Yep, done regular mortgages for them.)

Now, if you can't prove you income to me, then it may get a little tricky. If you have at least decent credit and a decent down payment (10-20%) I can do a "No-income" or "Stated Income" loan. The interest rate is a little bit higher (1/4% to 5%) depending on your credit score, down payment and other factors.

On the no income loans, the lenders really want to see some $$$ in the bank. Stock, bonds, retirement accounts, checking & savings accounts, etc. (I mean really, if you're pulling down mega-bucks, you should be able to save some of it.)

PM me if you have specific questions.

--------------kitty

PS. I am only licensed to do business in Arizona, so I won't try and get your business. Just trying to pay the forum back.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've been a mortgage loan officer for the last 15 years.

If I loan you money I want to be assured that you will pay me back. Therefore, show me your income (ie. two years of tax returns.) We figure if you paid taxes on it, it must be real income. I don't care if you are a heart surgeon, poker player or an, umm, exotic dancer. (Yep, done regular mortgages for them.)

Now, if you can't prove you income to me, then it may get a little tricky. If you have at least decent credit and a decent down payment (10-20%) I can do a "No-income" or "Stated Income" loan. The interest rate is a little bit higher (1/4% to 5%) depending on your credit score, down payment and other factors.

On the no income loans, the lenders really want to see some $$$ in the bank. Stock, bonds, retirement accounts, checking & savings accounts, etc. (I mean really, if you're pulling down mega-bucks, you should be able to save some of it.)

PM me if you have specific questions.

--------------kitty

PS. I am only licensed to do business in Arizona, so I won't try and get your business. Just trying to pay the forum back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just out of curiosity, if there are no w-2 forms etc, how do you know if the tax return is real? Can someone just keep a dummy return for credit purposes? Is would seem maybe there is a law against this (can you cite the law it breaks), but if you're not actually submitting anything false to the IRS...

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've been a mortgage loan officer for the last 15 years.

If I loan you money I want to be assured that you will pay me back. Therefore, show me your income (ie. two years of tax returns.) We figure if you paid taxes on it, it must be real income. I don't care if you are a heart surgeon, poker player or an, umm, exotic dancer. (Yep, done regular mortgages for them.)

Now, if you can't prove you income to me, then it may get a little tricky. If you have at least decent credit and a decent down payment (10-20%) I can do a "No-income" or "Stated Income" loan. The interest rate is a little bit higher (1/4% to 5%) depending on your credit score, down payment and other factors.

On the no income loans, the lenders really want to see some $$$ in the bank. Stock, bonds, retirement accounts, checking & savings accounts, etc. (I mean really, if you're pulling down mega-bucks, you should be able to save some of it.)

PM me if you have specific questions.

--------------kitty

PS. I am only licensed to do business in Arizona, so I won't try and get your business. Just trying to pay the forum back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just out of curiosity, if there are no w-2 forms etc, how do you know if the tax return is real? Can someone just keep a dummy return for credit purposes? Is would seem maybe there is a law against this (can you cite the law it breaks), but if you're not actually submitting anything false to the IRS...

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If a rich person is co signing and they can meet the credit guidelines for a 3rd house isn't the posters info irrelivant? Don't they just go by grandpa's info?

If Bill Gates cosigns for my house does my specific info matter?

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just out of curiosity, if there are no w-2 forms etc, how do you know if the tax return is real? Can someone just keep a dummy return for credit purposes? Is would seem maybe there is a law against this (can you cite the law it breaks), but if you're not actually submitting anything false to the IRS...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're signing a document, a loan application, that contains assurances from you that everything on the application is true. Submitting a dummy tax return for the purposes of borrowing money is fraud. Most lenders now require mortgage applicants to sign a form 4506, which allows them to compare the applicants tax return against the actual return submitted to the IRS. If the numbers don't match, you've got huge problems.

OP should be fine, as long as he and his lady find a loan program that allows a "non occupant co-borrower". And the earlier post is absolutely right. Even without granddad, OP could get a mortgage using a so-called NoDoc, or no income verification loan.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

Solution: 12 months bank statements.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

Get a "stated income loan" where you don't have to provide documentation of income. You'll pay a few percentage points more on the rate, but if you can;t document income, it may be your only choice.

Search "stated income loan". I know Quicken offers them.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

If you have good credit you can also go with a no doc loan. There are some lenders that do 100% financing on no doc loans, but others also require 5-10%. This is assuming that your fico score is at least 720. This is how I bought my house.

If your grandfather has excellent credit you can also have him finance the house and have your name on the loan as a non purchasing spouse. Depending on the state you live in it might also have to be an income property for him. He can always say it is an income property for the two of you, and you are rentring it to your girlfriend.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

I have a good credit score and am in the process of buying a house. With 10% down, I can now get a 6.75% loan with no origination fee, and minimal negotiable fees. You don't have to show ANY proof of income or ANY assets. If anyone tells you different, find another loan broker.

BTW, it is *ESSENTIAL* that you get bids from at least 2 loan brokers and tell each what the other is offering you, so that you will get decent terms. They are glorified used car salesman, and they make money of a variety of b.s. fees like the "Document Processing Fee." The industry exists on the ignorance of the typical consumer. The first loan broker I talked to ended up taking off over $1500 from his initial bid, which at the time he described as the "lowest I would find anywhere." Get them bidding against each other -- but be nice and professional about it -- and after about 3 or 4 rounds you'll be left with a reasonable price.

HTH,
gm

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

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Solution: 12 months bank statements.

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Completely unnecessary if you have a good credit score.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

[ QUOTE ]

On the no income loans, the lenders really want to see some $$$ in the bank. Stock, bonds, retirement accounts, checking & savings accounts, etc. (I mean really, if you're pulling down mega-bucks, you should be able to save some of it.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I know for a fact that this is not true in either California or Arkansas. Is Arizona different? I don't see why it would be? Is this something specific to your bank? This advice seems misleading to me, especially coming from someone who's been in the business 15 years.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

It's not misleading, and it's accurate. At least it is in TX. I've bought several homes and always needed to supply the last 2 months bank statements. And it can help to provide 401k documents. Lenders want to know that if you hit a bump in the road you have some reserves.

OP - You will likely need to get a no doc loan, unless you can get a cpa letter stating that you have been self employed for 2 years. Then you can do stated. I got a no doc loan on my residneee and got a decent rate putting no money down. I did have 755 credit though. Buying an investment property with a no doc loan is a different story.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's not misleading, and it's accurate. At least it is in TX. I've bought several homes and always needed to supply the last 2 months bank statements. And it can help to provide 401k documents. Lenders want to know that if you hit a bump in the road you have some reserves.

OP - You will likely need to get a no doc loan, unless you can get a cpa letter stating that you have been self employed for 2 years. Then you can do stated. I got a no doc loan on my residneee and got a decent rate putting no money down. I did have 755 credit though. Buying an investment property with a no doc loan is a different story.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not misleading, and it's accurate. At least it is in TX. I've bought several homes and always needed to supply the last 2 months bank statements. And it can help to provide 401k documents. Lenders want to know that if you hit a bump in the road you have some reserves.

OP - You will likely need to get a no doc loan, unless you can get a cpa letter stating that you have been self employed for 2 years. Then you can do stated. I got a no doc loan on my residneee and got a decent rate putting no money down. I did have 755 credit though. Buying an investment property with a no doc loan is a different story.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not accurate in CA and AR. That much I know for sure. And I would be willing to bet it's not accurate in most other places. I think it's much more likely that you were dealing with a strict lender, that you didn't have a good loan broker, or that you got a different type of loan than the type I got.

OP -- please understand that if you have a good credit score, you will most likely NOT need any proof of assets or income. Call a few loan brokers and tell them you want a no doc loan -- see what they say.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a good credit score and am in the process of buying a house. With 10% down, I can now get a 6.75% loan with no origination fee, and minimal negotiable fees. You don't have to show ANY proof of income or ANY assets. If anyone tells you different, find another loan broker.

BTW, it is *ESSENTIAL* that you get bids from at least 2 loan brokers and tell each what the other is offering you, so that you will get decent terms. They are glorified used car salesman, and they make money of a variety of b.s. fees like the "Document Processing Fee." The industry exists on the ignorance of the typical consumer. The first loan broker I talked to ended up taking off over $1500 from his initial bid, which at the time he described as the "lowest I would find anywhere." Get them bidding against each other -- but be nice and professional about it -- and after about 3 or 4 rounds you'll be left with a reasonable price.

HTH,
gm

[/ QUOTE ]

From my experiences, this is all accurate. I used to be an analyst for a corporate/commercial bank, and the account managers (loan officers) would charge clients fees based solely on what they thought they could get away with. Also, when you shop your deal around, they start sweating and get desperate, and they'll start cutting the fees and rates down. When I buy a house or start a business, I will be shopping the deal around all over town, and telling them all what the competition can do. The company I worked for had minimum profitability guidelines for every deal, I am sure thats the same for most of them. The key is to get them to knock down the price of the loan so they are making as little money off of you as possible.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

There are an incredible range of different mortgage loan products. The bottom line is...the more documentation & higher credit scores you have, the better terms you will get.

Yes, you are right, there are NINA programs. No Income/No asset verification.

No, you are wrong, on a No Income verification loan the lender usually wants to see a 6 months reserve of PITI (principle, interest, taxes and insurance.) It also raises her spidey senses to see someone who claims making $10,000 a month with only $2,000 in their checking account. Then she/he can/will start asking more questions. That is something you don't want to see. It only goes downhill from there.

-------kitty

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

You guys fail to realize that if you talk to 10 loan officers, a least a few are going to tell you what you want to hear regardless of whether or not it's true. So go ahead play the brokers off each other trying to save a few pennies and get quoted a rate/program that doesnt exist. Not so bad when you're doing a refi, but on a purchase loan you're gonna get f**ked. When you go to sign docs, at a time when the deal cant fall through or you'll lose your house, rest assured you'll find out the real rate.

As far as reserves go...every lender wants to see them.

Bank statements: 12 months = ~.250 add to full doc pricing. Stated is anywhere from ~.50 - 1.0 you tell me which is better.

Pricing, best to worst
Full doc
SIVA
SINA
NINA

Remember, a GFE is just that...an estimate. A statement I tell borrowers every day: "just because they say it doenst make it true."

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

i don't understand why loan officers care if you are going to default on a secured loan(eg morgage) if you give them enough cash upfront to cover the paperwork and the rent for the time it takes to evict you. in fact, they should want you to default since it benefits the company

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

Jeez!!! You guys need to find a better loan officer to begin with.

It's kind of like with a car dealer. If I really wanted too, I could stick it to my clients and make a lot of money. I'd also make a lot of mad customers.

I think it's really funny with someone tells me that they are going to shop around. I immediately re-raise them! "If you can find someone who is a lot cheaper than me, they are lying. I am a professional. I am paid well for what I do, because when I tell you that you are approved, it's a done deal. You don't have to worry. Yes, you might be able to find someone who is new in the business and you can save $100 or so because he needs the practice."

Then I let them know to call me if I can be of any further assistance. I lose some clients, and then have to listen to the horror stories from the Realtors involved.

There are some crooks in the business, I don't deny that. Talk to your friends. Talk to your Realtors. Get quotes from a couple people and then go to the person you trust and say here's what I been offered. Why should I go with you. Listen to his explaination, don't look at the figures. You'll know who to trust, because that's what you really need. A professional you can trust.

----------kitty

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't understand why loan officers care if you are going to default on a secured loan(eg morgage) if you give them enough cash upfront to cover the paperwork and the rent for the time it takes to evict you. in fact, they should want you to default since it benefits the company

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds real good until the State Banking Commission comes by and says their boss, the elected officials, are asking why you are throwing their voters on the streets. Banks/Mortgage Companies are lenders. They are rated by how well they do their job. Making good loans. Beside, most loans are sold off on Wall Street as mortgage backed securites. Those are purchased my Banks, Insurance Companies and Pension Plans. They really don't want your house. They want your money.

Another point to consider...A few years ago a study was done to determine how much $$$ was being returned on a foreclosed loan. Bottom line: about 72-74%. REALLY??? Yep!

If I have to come foreclose on your home, I have to make the payments for at least 3 months, more likely 5 months, while I get you thrown out of the house. (4% loss) I also have to pay attorney fees, court costs, sheriff costs, filing fees, etc to have you legally removed from the house. (5% loss) I'll bet you haven't taken great care of the home you are about to lose, so I have to fix it up a little (or a lot if you have damaged it on purpose.) (3% loss??) Now I have to pay a real estate agent to sell the house. (6% loss) And pay the closing costs. (2% loss) I still gotta keep making payments/losing interest on my money for another 3 months on average. (3% loss)

Those figures are just my guesses, but I'll bet for a nationwide average they aren't too far off.

"But I'm putting a lot of money down!!! I putting in at least $30,000 on this $200,000 home." hahahahahahahaha That's nothing.

----------kitty

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's not misleading, and it's accurate. At least it is in TX. I've bought several homes and always needed to supply the last 2 months bank statements. And it can help to provide 401k documents. Lenders want to know that if you hit a bump in the road you have some reserves.

OP - You will likely need to get a no doc loan, unless you can get a cpa letter stating that you have been self employed for 2 years. Then you can do stated. I got a no doc loan on my residneee and got a decent rate putting no money down. I did have 755 credit though. Buying an investment property with a no doc loan is a different story.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not misleading, and it's accurate. At least it is in TX. I've bought several homes and always needed to supply the last 2 months bank statements. And it can help to provide 401k documents. Lenders want to know that if you hit a bump in the road you have some reserves.

OP - You will likely need to get a no doc loan, unless you can get a cpa letter stating that you have been self employed for 2 years. Then you can do stated. I got a no doc loan on my residneee and got a decent rate putting no money down. I did have 755 credit though. Buying an investment property with a no doc loan is a different story.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not accurate in CA and AR. That much I know for sure. And I would be willing to bet it's not accurate in most other places. I think it's much more likely that you were dealing with a strict lender, that you didn't have a good loan broker, or that you got a different type of loan than the type I got.

OP -- please understand that if you have a good credit score, you will most likely NOT need any proof of assets or income. Call a few loan brokers and tell them you want a no doc loan -- see what they say.

[/ QUOTE ]

I invest in real estate as a business. I wasn't dealing with a strict lender. I know several mortgage brokers and get the best rates/deals I can. I saw where you said a broker took 1500 of his price. I've never even paid as much as 1500 to a mortgage broker. I'm sure you can find people who will give you a loan without showing them anything. But your going to get a lousy rate in comparison to a real mortgage company that is looking to make good loans at good rates. I've never put more than 5% down on a property.

OP - Just show as much as you can and shop around. If you have a good income it won't be a big deal that you don't show tax returns etc. I got a no doc loan on my principal residence with no money down based on credit score and 2 months bank statements. It's easy to get a loan for a principle residence with decent credit. Show as much as you can to get a better rate.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

Am I the only guy who just paid cash?

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

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Am I the only guy who just paid cash?

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Maybe. In the United States it's stupid for most people to pay cash.

Generally interest paid for a residence is tax deductable. I'm lending money today at about 6.5%. After taxes, you're borrowing money from me at a real cost of a little over 4%. If I gave you $100,000 today, do you think you could earn more than 4% on your money? If so, you should get a mortgage.

--------kitty

PS. I know for a lot of people the above doesn't apply. You have little income so you don't pay much in taxes or you are getting ready to retire and, for mental reason, you just don't want a mortgage. I am not going to disagree. It is a personal choice.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

Right now I cant do much better than 4%. I know jackshit about investing and its getting to the point where I need to be pointed in the right direction and learn asap.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

ING? :/

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

[ QUOTE ]

No, you are wrong, on a No Income verification loan the lender usually wants to see a 6 months reserve of PITI (principle, interest, taxes and insurance.) It also raises her spidey senses to see someone who claims making $10,000 a month with only $2,000 in their checking account. Then she/he can/will start asking more questions. That is something you don't want to see. It only goes downhill from there.


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I just got a NI loan. They did not ask to see anything. Credit score and 10% down. Period.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

[ QUOTE ]

No, you are wrong, on a No Income verification loan the lender usually wants to see a 6 months reserve of PITI (principle, interest, taxes and insurance.) It also raises her spidey senses to see someone who claims making $10,000 a month with only $2,000 in their checking account. Then she/he can/will start asking more questions. That is something you don't want to see. It only goes downhill from there.

-------kitty

[/ QUOTE ]
I believe this completely depends on the lender. I just bought a house 2 months ago 100% financing, no doc. I did not have to provide bank statements, proof of PITI, or rental history.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

rate?

I'm getting a NI loan soon.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

Slavic, you're not the only guy who just paid cash. All real estate is local though, and if the original poster lives in an area where real estate prices are sky-rocketing, then he may want to go ahead, secure the loan, and get the house for today's price. Then he can pay off the note early when he's able, as long as there is no pre-payment penalty. That's the route I took, and it allowed me to get my house considerably cheaper than if I waited to save up the money. I'm aware of cash buyers though. Having a paid-off house is an advantage not to be underestimated if you are involved in any kind of self-employment venture where there are long periods where you are not being paid.

Another huge advantage of owning your home outright is that if you are victim of disaster -- and I have been victim of not one but two! natural disasters in the past few years -- then the insurance money goes to you instead of to the bank. You can put your life back together a little more quickly and efficiently. And I never even thought about the difference it made, until I saw the other people around me with mortgages, second mortgages, home equity loans etcetera struggling to get the money in their own hands instead of a lender's hands so that they could do the needed repairs in time to save their homes from mold.

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jeez!!! You guys need to find a better loan officer to begin with.

It's kind of like with a car dealer. If I really wanted too, I could stick it to my clients and make a lot of money. I'd also make a lot of mad customers.

I think it's really funny with someone tells me that they are going to shop around. I immediately re-raise them! "If you can find someone who is a lot cheaper than me, they are lying. I am a professional. I am paid well for what I do, because when I tell you that you are approved, it's a done deal. You don't have to worry. Yes, you might be able to find someone who is new in the business and you can save $100 or so because he needs the practice."

Then I let them know to call me if I can be of any further assistance. I lose some clients, and then have to listen to the horror stories from the Realtors involved.

There are some crooks in the business, I don't deny that. Talk to your friends. Talk to your Realtors. Get quotes from a couple people and then go to the person you trust and say here's what I been offered. Why should I go with you. Listen to his explaination, don't look at the figures. You'll know who to trust, because that's what you really need. A professional you can trust.

----------kitty

[/ QUOTE ]

I shudder.

When I purchased my place (my first real estate transaction), I went with a smaller internet broker who [censored] me. He was going to save me .25 off the bigger institutions and a little bit in closing costs, sure. But everything he said about how I could document my assets (which included a somewhat odd homebuying assistance program from my employer, and a lot of money that had arrived from neteller in the last 3 months) went to [censored] [censored] a week before I was supposed to go to closing.

Went to a big, respected mortgage company. They got everything prepared in under 2 weeks. I had to give the sellers $1000 and an extra 6 weeks in the place on my tab in order to not lose the condo (since they lost the one they had a contract on because of our delayed settlement)

2nd

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

No, you are wrong, on a No Income verification loan the lender usually wants to see a 6 months reserve of PITI (principle, interest, taxes and insurance.) It also raises her spidey senses to see someone who claims making $10,000 a month with only $2,000 in their checking account. Then she/he can/will start asking more questions. That is something you don't want to see. It only goes downhill from there.

-------kitty

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I believe this completely depends on the lender. I just bought a house 2 months ago 100% financing, no doc. I did not have to provide bank statements, proof of PITI, or rental history.

[/ QUOTE ]

What did you have to provide? And what rate did you get?

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

I'm in a similar boat as some other posters in this thread. I'm going loan shopping this week looking for a 5% down stated income loan.

Would anyone like to share specific lenders they've had success with?

Also, is there a stigma with a 25 year old poker pro? The ranges for what poker players make can be quite large. How do lenders determine what is reasonable for a stated income loan?

Re: Pro poker player buying a house...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

No, you are wrong, on a No Income verification loan the lender usually wants to see a 6 months reserve of PITI (principle, interest, taxes and insurance.) It also raises her spidey senses to see someone who claims making $10,000 a month with only $2,000 in their checking account. Then she/he can/will start asking more questions. That is something you don't want to see. It only goes downhill from there.

-------kitty

[/ QUOTE ]
I believe this completely depends on the lender. I just bought a house 2 months ago 100% financing, no doc. I did not have to provide bank statements, proof of PITI, or rental history.

[/ QUOTE ]

What did you have to provide? And what rate did you get?

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I have a great FICO score, but the broker I went through said that you should at least have a 720 to qualify 100% no doc. All I had to provide is my social security, and some form that I had to fill out. After that I just showed up to close.
I have an 80/20 loan. The lien with 80% has a 6% rate, and the 20% was 12% (OUCH!) w/ a 15 year balloon payment.

If I had only known about this type of program a few years ago it would have saved me quite of bit of wasted rent money.
I would have also secured much better rates, as they are steadily climbing.