$60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t1430)
UTG+1 (t1470)
MP1 (t3070)
MP2 (t1480)
CO (t1500)
Hero (t1200)
SB (t1760)
BB (t1590)

Preflop: Hero is in Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls t30, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="red">MP1 raises to t120</font>, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, Hero calls t120, <font color="gray">SB folds</font>, BB calls t90, UTG calls t90

Flop: (t495) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="red">MP1 bets t60</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to t420</font>, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>, <font color="red">UTG raises to t780</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, Hero?


Rounding out the great suzzer AK horror trilogy. I think we've established that I suck with this hand early (and late too). All alternative lines appreciated.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

I am extremely unsure about this....

...but I'm looking through my HH and thinking about pushing preflop depending on how MP1 got his chip lead. Played the way you did, I go broke to UTG's set of 5s.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

Can you really call here? What hands do you think UTG is doing this with?

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

I reraise less on flop, like 350 or so. Easier to manage.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

Have to fold to UTG c/r after a bet-raise in front of him. I put UTG on a set or 2-pr.

I also agree with re-raising slightly less on the flop. Otherwise, nicely played (assuming you fold to UTG).

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

Ya I think you need to fold unless UTG is a super donk he has at least AT here.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

wow, you have 660 left and i think you need to fold.... kinda sad i know.

seeing as how the board is ragged, i would be more inclined to raise less on the flop... no need to make it that big of a raise when your hand is most likely the best. i think a raise to ~260 should suffice...

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

Villain had A5. I just had to see it.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain had A5. I just had to see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's going to be worth a lot of money to break that habit.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

You don't need to be second-guessing yourself like that.

You got AK, you hit an A or a K on the flop, you go broke with it. It's that simple.

What's your other option? Run like a scared baby every time somebody min-raises you?

Move on to the next game. You did nothing wrong.

2+2 is full of geniuses... once they know what the villain had.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

dont fold here please.

edit read some responses, cmon folding is ridiculous IMO despite the fact the guy had 2 pair.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]
dont fold here please.

edit read some responses, cmon folding is ridiculous IMO despite the fact the guy had 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not ridiculous IMHO. If I'm doing the math right you're getting 3:1 on a push, before ICM and minimum edge (i.e. don't go broke early) considerations, and the board is real dry. A read would help obviously but I'm not instantly shoving here. I wouldn't expect another AK to play it this way preflop and what is hero beating otherwise except vs. a total donk?

I doubt I'd fold without a read but I think it's a reasonable discussion.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dont fold here please.

edit read some responses, cmon folding is ridiculous IMO despite the fact the guy had 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not ridiculous IMHO. If I'm doing the math right you're getting 3:1 on a push, before ICM and minimum edge (i.e. don't go broke early) considerations, and the board is real dry. A read would help obviously but I'm not instantly shoving here. I wouldn't expect another AK to play it this way preflop and what is hero beating otherwise except vs. a total donk?

I doubt I'd fold without a read but I think it's a reasonable discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Its a $60
2. People are stupid
3. You are getting 3-1

Folding is unbelievably terrible.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dont fold here please.

edit read some responses, cmon folding is ridiculous IMO despite the fact the guy had 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not ridiculous IMHO. If I'm doing the math right you're getting 3:1 on a push, before ICM and minimum edge (i.e. don't go broke early) considerations, and the board is real dry. A read would help obviously but I'm not instantly shoving here. I wouldn't expect another AK to play it this way preflop and what is hero beating otherwise except vs. a total donk?

I doubt I'd fold without a read but I think it's a reasonable discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Its a $60
2. People are stupid
3. You are getting 3-1

Folding is unbelievably terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I see "unbelievably terrible" every day at nearly every table I play, as do you, I'm sure. Let's keep some perspective here.

If you are confident you are beat here, you fold. If you think there's a reasonable chance you're ahead, you push. Not too much else to be said, I guess.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

Just to weigh in and not add much, folding here is incredibly bad, and I don't think it is very debatable. After putting in nearly half your stack, you are going to need a laser like read to lay this down. You might think you are beat, but the probabilty you are wrong is just too high to overcome how much you've effed yourself in this tourney by giving half your stack away.

I also rarely play AK passively preflop and this hand is a good example why.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]
dont fold here please.

edit read some responses, cmon folding is ridiculous IMO despite the fact the guy had 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

??? Usually when the action goes check/bet/raise/check-3bet all-in on a rainbow, drawless board, they either have 2 pair or a set, or AK.

How is folding bad?

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dont fold here please.

edit read some responses, cmon folding is ridiculous IMO despite the fact the guy had 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

??? Usually when the action goes check/bet/raise/check-3bet all-in on a rainbow, drawless board, they either have 2 pair or a set, or AK.

How is folding bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude do you want me to start saving all the HHs when pepole do this with worse than AK? You are getting 3-1 odds here man, people are not smart...they are very bad. You will be surprised at what they turn over sometimes. Its a $60, the guy is probably just hitting the min raise button. I mean listen is the way he played A5 here even at all reasonable? Wouldnt you move allin instead of min reraising? So because its so ridiculous, wouldnt it stand to reason that they could also be doing something ridiculous with a worse hand like AQ, AJ etc etc


This guy raised a limper with A5o and then plays like a total looney on the flop. Do you honestly believe that a player like this isn't capable of this kind of action without having AKo beat? Am I playing on a different site than everyone else here or something?

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

He can't have AQ? What about A2? JJ? If our opponents were logical people and only reraised here with two pair or a set then we couldn't make much money at this game.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]
He can't have AQ? What about A2? JJ? If our opponents were logical people and only reraised here with two pair or a set then we couldn't make much money at this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but he is logical look at his big reraise PF with A5o and then his min bet on the flop with top and bottom pair, followed by his genius min reraise. Let's watch the guy do 3 completely illogical things, and then try to give players like him a range of hands that all beats your top pair top kicker. It's absurd!!

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

I'm not folding here. 'Nuff said.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]
how much you've effed yourself in this tourney by giving half your stack away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Irrelevant because it's a sunk cost and you still have &gt;20x the blinds. The past is the past, what matters now are the pot odds vs. the odds you are beat.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He can't have AQ? What about A2? JJ? If our opponents were logical people and only reraised here with two pair or a set then we couldn't make much money at this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but he is logical look at his big reraise PF with A5o and then his min bet on the flop with top and bottom pair, followed by his genius min reraise. Let's watch the guy do 3 completely illogical things, and then try to give players like him a range of hands that all beats your top pair top kicker. It's absurd!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Some donks play exactly this way consistently. Overaggressive preflop because it isn't much of their stack, but any raise after the flop means big strength, period. I just busted out to one yesterday even though I knew better.

Also between ICM and wanting an edge I'm playing this as much closer to 2:1 than 3:1.

Like I said I'm pushing most of the time also, I just don't think a fold is so unbelievably awful that it can't generate some discussion. Which we've had. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

i don't think its that easy. 20x bb is a lot, but arguements could be made for calling even with big hands. When you have a good chance of having the best hand, which you do here, you can't get scared of all the iffs. Occasionally you have to get lucky on the off chance you are beat.

I put him on JJ or ax. if he has AT, bad luck.

Later in the tournament I would definetely make a preflop raise, but I like calling in situatins like this. Put it this way, what would you do with AQ in his position? Lose all your chips, that's right. By raising preflop you put the breaks on most hands you have beat IF an ace hits. If it doesn't, well, you get the point.

At least that's my line. Shove and smile. You win.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't think its that easy. 20x bb is a lot, but arguements could be made for calling even with big hands. You have to get lucky against better hands once in a while, especiaaly when there is a good chance you have the better hand.

I put him on JJ or ax. if he has AT, bad luck.

Later in the tournament I would definetely make a preflop raise, but I like calling in situatins like this. Put it this way, what would you do with AQ in his position? Lose all your chips, that's right. By raising preflop you put the breaks on most hands you have beat IF an ace hits. If it doesn't, well, you get the point.

At least that's my line. Shove and smile. You win.

[/ QUOTE ]

WooT?

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

folding is for morons [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain had A5. I just had to see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

no you didn't, you had to fold, and you also should've raised less on the flop.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not folding here. 'Nuff said.

[/ QUOTE ]

He limped UTG and then check-minraised a huge raise into two people, what the hell do you put him on, AQ?

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]

I put him on JJ or ax. if he has AT, bad luck.


[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell? Who plays JJ or Ax this way?

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]

You got AK, you hit an A or a K on the flop, you go broke with it. It's that simple.


[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the time this is true, but this is a clear cut case where it isn't, I'm sorry. NOBODY plays a hand worse than 2 pair this way on such a drawless board.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

Ok, here are my thoughts. And we'll go ahead and get out of the way that yes, I've read all the responses and yes, I was going to say fold before I did. Anyone that's read most of the hands I've posted over hte past couple of weeks probably know that anyway.

Here's the thing. First, Curtains, I'm not sure what hand you're looking at, but a lot of your recaps of UTG's actions are wrong. He called PF, called a raise PF and then check-raised the flop. I think you have MP1 confused w/ UTG, but MP1 folded on the flop after his min-bet. Ok, your point doesn't change but I'm just saying...

We already know that you assume everyone is an idiot, especially at an $X buy-in where X is a 1 or 2 digit number. At what point does your average opponent stop being a bumbling idiot that plays worse than I did when I start playing $6s 2 years ago? $109s? $215s? Does everyone just suck ass at poker at every buy-in? I mean come on, you said this is a $60... yeah you do see some idiots. But I don't think the typical $60 player is saying woot, an underpair.... I'll be sneaky sneak and min-re-re-raise the flop, teehee I bet MHIG!! Please. To say that is ridiculous. Hell, someone else said in the thread that if everyone only raised w/ 2 pair or a set, we'd all have a hard time making money. Well if everyone raised raised raised with absolute [censored], we'd all make 10x the amount of money we do, because we'd never have to think twice about getting in with top pair.

Like I seriously don't understand why we shouldn't EVER give our opponents credit for ANYTHING. I know I probably sound like the weakest, tightest nit ever when I say to fold so often, but that isn't the case. Plenty of situations I'm capable of calling or pushing or whatever when I think villain's line isn't consitent with anything that I'm behind. I pick off my fair share of bluffs / "value bets" from 2nd or 3rd best hands / etc. But no, I'm sorry, more often than not when someone at a $60 checks the flop and then raises a bettor AND a raiser, they don't have top pair with a 2 kicker. And they don't have 2nd pair or some other crap either. And I'm not saying they don't ever, but come on... some of you act like the $60s play as bad as the $3.30s and that just isn't the case.

And FWIW, if anyone wants to go find HHs where villain flipped up a [censored] hand after taking a line like this, please just find all the times they didn't while you're at it. Stop acting like this is never a hand better than TPTK.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]

1. Its a $60
2. People are stupid
3. You are getting 3-1

Folding is unbelievably terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

3-1 when you're drawing to 3 outs twice 90% of the time is not enough. But this is why we should have raised less to begin with.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how much you've effed yourself in this tourney by giving half your stack away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Irrelevant because it's a sunk cost and you still have &gt;20x the blinds. The past is the past, what matters now are the pot odds vs. the odds you are beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

pot odds - 3:1
odds you are beat - pretty much always

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

Isn't it "The Curse of the Return of the Creature's Ghost?" You forgot the "Curse" which is obviously not a small thing to forget.

Anyway, I would call now b/c you raised so much. I would raise to 300 instead. But really, I'm not sure I could get away from this flop anyway. You have t1080 left in your stack, going to the flop with a pot of 495. I can't fold AK here I don't think.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

I think most of curtains' posts are because he missed the reraiser wasn't the PFR, so...

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t495) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="red">MP1 bets t60</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to t420</font>, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>, <font color="red">UTG raises to t780</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>,

[/ QUOTE ]

I hit the dealer on the head with my cards

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it "The Curse of the Return of the Creature's Ghost?" You forgot the "Curse" which is obviously not a small thing to forget.

Anyway, I would call now b/c you raised so much. I would raise to 300 instead. But really, I'm not sure I could get away from this flop anyway. You have t1080 left in your stack, going to the flop with a pot of 495. I can't fold AK here I don't think.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can when villian makes it really easy to know you are beat. If hero had made it 300 and then the villan shoved, THAT would be a tough spot.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it "The Curse of the Return of the Creature's Ghost?" You forgot the "Curse" which is obviously not a small thing to forget.

Anyway, I would call now b/c you raised so much. I would raise to 300 instead. But really, I'm not sure I could get away from this flop anyway. You have t1080 left in your stack, going to the flop with a pot of 495. I can't fold AK here I don't think.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can when villian makes it really easy to know you are beat. If hero had made it 300 and then the villan shoved, THAT would be a tough spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I too missed that it was UTG that put in the raise. I would raise to 300, then I could find a fold if UTG 3-raised it.

Here, with half my stack already in the pot...boy it's tough to fold this considering the hands some people turn over.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]

Here, with half my stack already in the pot...boy it's tough to fold this considering the hands some people turn over.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many people do you seriously think check-min-3bet here with hands we beat? Are you seriously expecting to see AQ here more than 10% of the time? (I personally think 5% is generous)

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

Guys, this is a call even if the opponent SHOWS YOU his A5.

If you fold, ICM says you have 5.32% equity in the prize pool.

If you push and win, you'd have a 18.80% equity.

Hence, you need to win 28.3% (.532/.1880) of the time here to break even.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1762770
pokenum -h ac ks - ah 5h -- ad 5s tc
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 5s Tc Ad
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Ac 283 28.59 699 70.61 8 0.81 0.290
Ah 5h 699 70.61 283 28.59 8 0.81 0.710</pre><hr />

The responses in this thread are horrible.

You're ahead here at least 10% of the time in a $60 too - that's not insignificant.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

UMT, yes if he shows A5 - and I'll admit that isn't intuitive and I wouldn't have guessed that. So good catch.

But if he shows AT, you have 3 less outs and if he shows a set, you need runner runner. You are not 30% to win against a range of A5, AT, 55, and TT I'd guess. Add AK to the range too I guess because I think that's reasonable...

I do think it's close, but I really don't think you can call folding horrible here.

Re: $60 - AKo - The Return of the Creature\'s Ghost in 3D
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Here, with half my stack already in the pot...boy it's tough to fold this considering the hands some people turn over.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many people do you seriously think check-min-3bet here with hands we beat? Are you seriously expecting to see AQ here more than 10% of the time? (I personally think 5% is generous)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not totally confident that calling is correct here. But I do think that it's greater than 10% that we are ahead. I think AK/chop is v. likely as well. I don't play the Party 60s so I can't say for sure how often this is a monster. I do know that bad players will check-mini-raise often with hands they think are best, regardless of the conditions. Especially when they know that they're committing to the pot with the raise.