Slow Dance
 

AJ's NLHE. Full game. Blinds: $5-5-10. Minimum opening bet: $20. Minimum buyin: $2000. No max.

An exceptionally consistently conservative opener opened UTG for the minimum $20. I put him on AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, 88, 77, 66, 55, 44, 33, 22, AK, AQ, or maybe AJs or ATs, if he was feeling like gambling.

Ten years ago when I first started playing NL against him and the handful of others in this pool who can play like he does, I won many, many pots, but I lost and lost and lost. Nowadays it's a little different. We still dance. But we’re more in step. We keep it slow, no matter what the band is playing.

Everyone folded to me on the button. I called with AK. The small blind folded and the big blind called. Pot: $65. Stacks: everyone had $4,000.

The flop was A-9-4 rainbow. The big blind checked. UTG bet $40.

I believed his range of hands had narrowed to AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, 44, AK, AQ, or maybe AJs or ATs, if he was feeling like gambling.

I made it $80. The big blind folded. UTG made it $160.

Suddenly his range of hands got much, much narrower.

Would he make that reraise with one pair? I didn't think so. I mean, I really, really didn't think so. For him to open up the betting like that, first to act, with a board like that, after betting out, which is no small sign of commitment from him, and then getting raised, raised by ME, one of his beloved slow dance partners, well, when he raised it another $80 back to me headsup now on the flop, in that way he does it like, dude, you are so [censored], be careful now, don’t hurt yourself, it was a loud bet, really loud, and the other slow dancers who were listening, they heard it too. We love to listen to each other dance.

So according to the unspoken unwritten rules of engagement laid down by the secret-elders-of-a-gentle-race-this-world-has-seldom-seen, he was not allowed to reraise unless he could beat AK, which meant that according to the choreographer I was supposed to fold AK, so I did.

Fortunately for the story, I was the only one of us who abided by the teaching: “Show me yours and I won’t show you mine.” He flashed pocket aces and he said, “You couldn’t have pocket fours this time?” referencing an earlier pot I had won with pocket fours.

His question got me thinking. At the point when he reraised $80 on the flop, had I had bottom set, I wonder, should I, could I, would I have folded?


Tommy

Re: Slow Dance
 

Tommy, a set of 4s is the same as AK in this scneario.
-James

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tommy, a set of 4s is the same as AK in this scneario.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

not really, unless 2 pair is impossible?

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tommy, a set of 4s is the same as AK in this scneario.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

not really, unless 2 pair is impossible?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against certain live players, two pair is impossible.
-James

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tommy, a set of 4s is the same as AK in this scneario.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

not really, unless 2 pair is impossible?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against certain live players, two pair is impossible.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh word. 44 is slightly stronger technically if you weigh all sets the same since there are more combinations of sets to beat us if we have AK.

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
had I had bottom set, I wonder, should I, could I, would I have folded?


[/ QUOTE ]


of course not - he priced you in to draw to quads....

Re: Slow Dance
 

UTG sounds like a huge donkey fwiw

Re: Slow Dance
 

1/45 * 4000 = 88.89 >>> 80 (+$$$ in pot).

Call 44 on flop @ least. Everyone bluffs > 0% of the time. I like the AK fold... but question the minraise- however i have no information and am always too critical of your posts- at least theyr worded well.

Re: Slow Dance
 

You have a 4k stack. He probably has AK, 99, 44 then 15% a weaker ace or bluff. You ain't losing much by 4 betting to 350-400 here and it will be good for metagame even though it looks like the play might have short term -ev, but barely.

When you raise the flop, you don't want to fold every time you are 3 betted unless you have a set...

Re: Slow Dance
 

i'm glad i live in la.

Re: Slow Dance
 

Hi Tommy,

[ QUOTE ]
I folded AK...he flashed AA...

[/ QUOTE ]

You need prop bets in your game BAD.

Re: Slow Dance
 

The X-Man strikes again (if my guess on villain's identity is correct). I would imagine him holding AA or 99 here over 90% of the time with a small chance of 44. As played he's in a tough spot. How is he supposed to maximum value with his hand given his opponent? I wonder what range of hands he put you on and what he wanted to accomplish with his 3-bet. Perhaps he thought he was only going to get paid with a smaller set and that there was a good chance you go into call down mode.

I think he just got screwed and was unlucky that you were the one to get AK. If someone else got it, X would have been able to check into the check raise hotel preflop and probably the double up express on the flop. I will never pay him off though, it would be a crime.

Re: Slow Dance
 

He could try not being such a nit so he can actually make money when he doesn't have nuts over 2nd nuts only.

Re: Slow Dance
 

Yeah, vs. a guy like this description this is totally standard for me. He doesn't have AQ.

But yeah X is a total nit and min3betting AA into a tight opponent on an A94r board is lol.

Re: Slow Dance
 

does he get his stack in on a turn 2/3/5?

Re: Slow Dance
 

Honestly the action in this hand is a total joke right? Are you guys good players? I thought Angelo had some respect around here.

What kinda game is that when AA opens for $20, a flat call with AK on button. Then a minibet, a mini raise, and another miniraise on the flop???

Wow.

Re: Slow Dance
 

king - I actually chuckled a bit outloud when I was reading the action [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly the action in this hand is a total joke right? Are you guys good players? I thought Angelo had some respect around here.

What kinda game is that when AA opens for $20, a flat call with AK on button. Then a minibet, a mini raise, and another miniraise on the flop???

Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh, live poker.

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
What kinda game is that when AA opens for $20, a flat call with AK on button. Then a minibet, a mini raise, and another miniraise on the flop???

[/ QUOTE ]


Allow me to splain.

This game has been playing huge. Even though the blinds are $5-5-10, the stacks are mostly in the 4K to 10K range, and the chips are very much in motion. 10K wins and losses are common. I know that sounds kind of crazy given the blinds and all, but that's the way it is. What exists is a huge difference in looseness/recklessness and tightness/caution between the loose-reckless players and the tight-cautious players. And then among the tight-cautious players, there's the half a dozen who play super tight-cautious all the time no matter what, and then there's a dozen guys like me who can play exactly as safe as the constant tighties do when it's just us, but who open up considerably preflop when a loose player or two is already in the pot. This makes for lots and lots of big pots, especially when things happen like AA vs AK with an ace-rag-rag-rainbow flop. So when those cards happen, and a big pot DOESN'T happen, well that's when I figure it's something to write home about!

Tommy

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly the action in this hand is a total joke right? Are you guys good players? I thought Angelo had some respect around here.

What kinda game is that when AA opens for $20, a flat call with AK on button. Then a minibet, a mini raise, and another miniraise on the flop???

Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea I was confused too.

Re: Slow Dance
 

All,

Live poker, baby. In Tommy's spot, I may have just called the flop $40 instead and seen what happened from there.

Figuring out who you're going to love playing big pots against and who you're not is super-critical to live game success. Would I have played this the same as Tommy? Probably not. But my general attitude/approach to the situation would have been very similar.

As an aside, I was just thinking of one of my greatest poker accomplishments, which occurred a few years back. I actually got Tommy to live straddle in a limit game!

Re: Slow Dance
 

Why no raise pre flop?

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly the action in this hand is a total joke right? Are you guys good players? I thought Angelo had some respect around here.

What kinda game is that when AA opens for $20, a flat call with AK on button. Then a minibet, a mini raise, and another miniraise on the flop???

Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

yah I love that

I raise you the... MINIMUM

i reraise you the... MINIMUM

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
All,

Live poker, baby. In Tommy's spot, I may have just called the flop $40 instead and seen what happened from there.

Figuring out who you're going to love playing big pots against and who you're not is super-critical to live game success. Would I have played this the same as Tommy? Probably not. But my general attitude/approach to the situation would have been very similar.


[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever, it is still not optimal. I don't care if it is live or online.

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
As an aside, I was just thinking of one of my greatest poker accomplishments, which occurred a few years back. I actually got Tommy to live straddle in a limit game!


[/ QUOTE ]

OMG!

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why no raise pre flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why no raise pre flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) I wanted to give myself the best chance of seeing the flop and 2) I was in low gear and 3) I didn't like my hand.

Re: Slow Dance
 

1) you will see a flop if you raise pre
2) changing gears - ever heard of it?
3) don't play hold'em if you dont like AKs OTB with a limper

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have a 4k stack. He probably has AK, 99, 44 then 15% a weaker ace or bluff. You ain't losing much by 4 betting to 350-400 here and it will be good for metagame even though it looks like the play might have short term -ev, but barely.

When you raise the flop, you don't want to fold every time you are 3 betted unless you have a set...

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you ever played live?

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't like my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What was wrong with it?

Re: Slow Dance
 

It seems like a lot of you haven't played much live.

Re: Slow Dance
 

Tommy,

With these stack sizes you should be at least calling almost any two against this guy in this spot imo PF.

Are you?

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tommy,

With these stack sizes you should be at least calling almost any two against this guy in this spot imo PF.

Are you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the answer is yes, depending on what you mean my "almost any two."

When the stacks are deep, my default play on the button when limped to is to not fold. However, I do use the payoff tendencies of the limper combined with my cards as a randomizer of my button play. Sometimes I will vary my play and fold if the limper is one of the guys who has no leakage whatsoever and I have 72o, 82o, 92o, T2o, 83o, 93o, T3o, 94o, T4o, J2o, J3o, J4o, J5o, J6o, Q2o, Q3o, Q4o, Q5o, Q6o, or Q7o. I believe these occasional folds on the button, though they could be deemed incorrect by the grand councel of deepstack, do not totally suck.

Tommy

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All,

Live poker, baby. In Tommy's spot, I may have just called the flop $40 instead and seen what happened from there.

Figuring out who you're going to love playing big pots against and who you're not is super-critical to live game success. Would I have played this the same as Tommy? Probably not. But my general attitude/approach to the situation would have been very similar.


[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever, it is still not optimal. I don't care if it is live or online.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a huge difference between 10-20 6 max online and a live 10 handed table with way more than 100 blinds.

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All,

Live poker, baby. In Tommy's spot, I may have just called the flop $40 instead and seen what happened from there.

Figuring out who you're going to love playing big pots against and who you're not is super-critical to live game success. Would I have played this the same as Tommy? Probably not. But my general attitude/approach to the situation would have been very similar.


[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever, it is still not optimal. I don't care if it is live or online.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a huge difference between 10-20 6 max online and a live 10 handed table with way more than 100 blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha. Ok, whatever.

Re: Slow Dance
 

Wow. You old nits REALLY know how to play No Limit.

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. You old nits REALLY know how to play No Limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

All the old non-nits went broke.

Re: Slow Dance
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow. You old nits REALLY know how to play No Limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

All the old non-nits went broke.

[/ QUOTE ]
awesome

Re: Slow Dance
 

nh sir.

Re: Slow Dance
 

honestly, this looks like a bbv post due to the thinly veiled brag of "He flashed pocket aces"