10/20 - Strange lines
 

1. Generic question. I raise pf. Non-tag calls. He bet/3bets the flop and then screwplays the turn. Is this always a monster? Usually something that improved on the turn, right?

2. A slightly different strange play:

Villain is 39/21/2.4
he has c/r the turn 0/8
c/r the flop 23%
won showdown when raise turn 3/3

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO folds, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, SB folds.

Turn: (6.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>...

eh?

Re: 10/20 - Strange lines
 

Did you consider checking the flop? It's a pretty good board for ace high, but four players is pretty crappy for ace high.

This is a six the vast majority of the time but I still showdown here because I never fold top pair heads up.

Edit : folding the flop is very much so preferable to folding the turn when you hit this card, but I think a flop call is fine esp. w/ bdfd

Re: 10/20 - Strange lines
 

I think betting this flop is standard on this board even against 4 opponents cuz the hero will have the best hand here often enough. However once I bet here and the SB calls and the BB checkraises for value, I just fold out right away. I dont mess with Big blinds who checkraise for value in this spot, I just get out of their way. If I called the flop raise and hit a Jack on the turn, I am showing this hand down every time against this guy no matter what the action.

Re: 10/20 - Strange lines
 

Check the flop. Barring that, bet fold.

Re: 10/20 - Strange lines
 

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Check the flop. Barring that, bet fold.

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Checking the flop is horrible. Bet/folding the turn is horrible against this guy.

Re: 10/20 - Strange lines
 

&amp;#9830;

Re: 10/20 - Strange lines
 

[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: 10/20 - Strange lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Check the flop. Barring that, bet fold.

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Checking the flop is horrible. Bet/folding the turn is horrible against this guy.

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Are you [censored] serious? Checking the flop may be -EV, I don't know, but there is no way in hell it could be horrible. Thanks for another [censored] limit post.

Also, bet fold the flop, too.

Re: 10/20 - Strange lines
 

looks fine, calldown

people do retarded [censored] all the time

Re: 10/20 - Strange lines
 

You can't fold this flop getting 12:1. I like your flop bet. This is a value bet against 3 opponents on this flop.

Turn doesn't really matter. I'm sure calling down or folding will yield the same results without a clearer read than stats.

I've been known to check behind on this turn after villian checkraises flop and checks the turn HU. If he's drawing then he probably bets the river after you check the turn regardless of whether he improves or not, so you don't really lose value against a busted draw by betting the turn. Also, you lose less when he has 6x/55 or hits his draw on the river. You are really only losing value versus 5x/PPs, but those hands will generally bet a J turn so his check looks suspicious.

Re: 10/20 - Strange lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check the flop. Barring that, bet fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking the flop is horrible. Bet/folding the turn is horrible against this guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you [censored] serious? Checking the flop may be -EV, I don't know, but there is no way in hell it could be horrible. Thanks for another [censored] limit post.

Also, bet fold the flop, too.

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The hero will have the best hand often enough on this board in this 4 handed pot to make betting +EV over checking. Im not necessarily bet/folding this flop either, but in the hero's hand Im folding to that raise every time. Thats a "Gimme more of your money" raise, not a "I'm trying to outplay you" raise. If I did call that raise and hit a jack on the turn, Im showing this hand down every time no matter what the action becuz I dont trust a guy with those stats, I dont care what his recent short term record is with turn raises.

Re: 10/20 - Strange lines
 

So you trust him on the flop but not the turn?

Also, if we have the best hand, our edge is very slim, and its unlikely many people are folding in this large pot to one bet. If we're unlikely to win UI, why are we betting?

Re: 10/20 - Strange lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you trust him on the flop but not the turn?[ QUOTE ]


Lol, I was waiting for that. The flop action tells me im trailing, and I dont like drawing to overcards when I can easily be drawing dead, so I would fold the flop. But if I misclicked and called on the flop, and a Jack hit the turn, I am showing down against this guy. I realize the logical inconsistency here, but this game is funny in that way. On the flop we have no hand, and the action says we could be drawing dead, so we fold. On the turn we have a hand, and the pot is big enough to play it to the end hoping our hand is good, hoping that guy doesnt have trips or better.

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Also, if we have the best hand, our edge is very slim, and its unlikely many people are folding in this large pot to one bet. If we're unlikely to win UI, why are we betting?

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Pushing slim edges is what I do. Taking the right aggressive action is not always easy and comfortable. Against 3 opponents AJo will win unimproved on this board more often then you think. It is worth betting the flop and seeing what happens, if one or two people call, it will usually be worth betting again on the turn. Of course everything depends but you get the idea, everything starts with betting the flop.

Re: 10/20 - Strange lines
 

flop cr says ure beat most the time, as playd i like the turn check to induce a bluff from a 5 perhaps but i doubt that ure ahead most the time after that flop cr. flop fold seems bad tho

Re: 10/20 - Strange lines
 

Question 1: I have often seen fds played like this. Dont know what these guys are thinking? But it is not alway a monster that is played like this in my experience.

Re: 10/20 - Strange lines
 

agreed.
bet that flop.
bet that turn.
call him down.

Re: 10/20 - Strange lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
Question 1: I have often seen fds played like this. Dont know what these guys are thinking? But it is not alway a monster that is played like this in my experience.

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I agree but there is no FD on this flop, and even if there is, folding to a protected pot checkraise on the flop is still probably the best play when all we have is ace-high. After this action, someone is likely to have a pair, and if the flop checkraiser has a FD then the hero has 4 outs to a hand that will get rivered around 20% of the time.

Re: 10/20 - Strange lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
flop cr says ure beat most the time, as playd i like the turn check to induce a bluff from a 5 perhaps but i doubt that ure ahead most the time after that flop cr. flop fold seems bad tho

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I dont mind checking the turn and calling the river here. Even if this play is not optimal, it lowers your variance and your heart rate. I would usually bet/call here though.